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+--- Thread: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague (/showthread.php?tid=10)
Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - Biodsl - 07-01-2020
Based on what little information we have right now, it sounds like the military has tested and might have actually deployed 6mmARC. My question is regarding the 108 ELDM. Would this bullet actually be allowed in a declared military conflict or does a new, compliant bullet need to be developed.
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - BluntForceTrauma - 07-01-2020
When I was at SHOT Show 2020, I saw vendors who can put steel cores in pretty much any bullet, a la M855A1 style. Would be surprised if DOD hasn't at least tried it in 6mm.
Articles mentioned they liked 6mmARC penetration, so what bullet did they test for penetration?
Also, we've got a well-established precedent of M188LR and Mk262 HPBTs, or OTMs, being JAG-approved. So, since the 108 ELDM was NOT created for increased wounding effects, I can't imagine it not being approved.
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - VASCAR2 - 07-01-2020
Hornady has released a 6 MM ARC 106 grain Tap line of ammo marketed to Law Enforcement. I feel sure there has been development of a M855A1 style of bullet for the 6 ARC. The 6 ARC has been in testing for over two years and has supposedly been tested by SF/DoD. I bet the guys at Crane NWS have been pretty involved with this program.
I’m looking forward to Hornady releasing reloading data. Starline sell 6.5 Grendel Basic brass for forming to wildcat cartridges. This brass needs to be annealed once sized. A Friend just purchased a 22 Grendel and he is going to use this Starline Basic brass. If Starline hasn’t released 6 MM ARC brass I bet it won’t be long. It looks like you could produce 6 MM ARC brass from the 6.5 Grendel Basic Starline brass. You’d probably have to trim the cases and anneal once sized to 6 ARC.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/grendel-basic
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - BluntForceTrauma - 07-01-2020
VC2, good find. Hornady's LE/MIL WEBSITE says:
=================
6mm ARC 106 gr TAP: Tested, selected, and fielded by a specialized group within the U.S. Department of Defense for its multipurpose combat rifle program, the versatile 6mm ARC (Advanced Rifle Cartridge) does what much larger cartridges can and everything that smaller cartridges can’t. Designed to meet the needs of the world’s toughest critics, the 6mm ARC 106 gr. TAP utilizes a purpose built, high-BC bullet designed for barrier blind performance:
Ballistic Coefficient: (G1): .580
Characteristics: Heat Shield® Tipped Match Grade
=================
Couple things I want verification: (1) The BC of their 106 is 0.580 but the BC of their 108 is 0.536. Something seems off. (2) Bullet is designed for "barrier blind" and yet it has a polymer tip like their match bullets? Something seems off.
I hope these things get clarified in the next few months. I know I'd rather shoot a 106 with a 0.580 BC!
For comparison, Berger's 6mm 109 LR Hybrid Target has a BC of 0.568.
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - danm - 07-01-2020
Excellent info, I'm probably just going to re-barrel my 18" G DMR build (My Avavtar) with a Proof Carbon barrel. Should be fun.
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - VASCAR2 - 07-01-2020
The barrier blind is accomplished by locking the core to the jacket. The Trophy Bonded Bear Claw is a classic barrier blind bullet with a good reputation in 5.56/223. The polymer heat resistant tip is not a problem for pentration in barriers. Some bullets are designed with partition style composition whereas other bullets have core physically bonded to the jacket like Gold Dots. Some bullets use cannelures with specific jacket thickness/hardness along with appropriate hardened lead cores to optimize performance in a broad range of applications.
The 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP load is XM556FBIT3.
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - VASCAR2 - 07-02-2020
David Fortier’s article states the BC for the 103 grain ELD-X is .512 @ 2800 FPS from a 24” test barrel. The 105 grain BTHP Black load has a G1 BC of .530 @ 2750 FPS from a 24” barrel. The 108 grain ELD-Match has a G1 BC of .536 @ 2750 FPS from a 24” barrel. David didn’t give any specifics on the Military/LE TAP but I’m not sure if the general public will be able to order the 6 ARC TAP load. I suspect the availability will be limited like the other calibers in the TAP line.
https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/new-from-hornady-6mm-arc/376909
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - stanc - 07-03-2020
Since 6 ARC is a spec ops project, not an Army program, I would be very surprised if an (M855A1-type) EPR bullet has been developed.
The TAP is an expanding bullet, a design that clearly violates the Hague prohibition on use of such projectiles.
Hornady's gel tests do show fairly good "barrier blind" performance, except in the one barrier which would seem most critical: Auto glass.
Bare Gelatin
![[Image: 81605-bare.jpg]](https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornadyle/gelatins/81605-bare.jpg)
Steel
![[Image: 81605-steel.jpg]](https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornadyle/gelatins/81605-steel.jpg)
Auto Glass
![[Image: 81605-glass.jpg]](https://press.hornady.com/assets/site/hornadyle/gelatins/81605-glass.jpg)
https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/6mm-arc-106-gr-tap#!/
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - VASCAR2 - 07-04-2020
We probably won’t hear what DoD/SF have tested but for most ops I suspect SF might use the 108 grain ELD-M or 105 grain BTHP. I doubt the 6 ARC TAP bullet has as good of BC as the other bullets.
JAG has pretty much said insurgents don’t get the protections provided by the Hague convention so unless there is a declared war I don’t think it matters.
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - stanc - 07-04-2020
Well, the question in the OP was about use of 6 ARC expanding bullets in a declared war, not use against insurgents.
Hague Declaration III itself states that the ban on expanding bullets applies only to war between signatory nations.
The United States refused to sign Declaration III, so presumably it is not legally obligated to abide by the restrictions.
In any case, considering the seemingly low probability of war with a signatory nation, I agree it likely doesn't matter.
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - Biodsl - 07-04-2020
Thanks to all for the information. We've been using the Mk 262 in 5.56 for almost 20 years now. Bullet construction doesn't seem to have been an issue.
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - stanc - 07-04-2020
For signatory nations, bullet construction has ALWAYS been an issue.
I don't know of any signatory that considers hollow point match bullets to be lawful.
Even against insurgents, the British Army uses FMJ ammo in sniper and squad marksman rifles.
Until about three decades ago, bullet construction used to be an issue for the United States, too.
![[Image: M852%20MATCH.jpg]](http://inrd.gotdns.com/temp/M852%20MATCH.jpg)
RE: Hornady 108 ELDM and the Hague - stanc - 07-04-2020
(07-04-2020, 01:50 AM)VASCAR2 Wrote: We probably won’t hear what DoD/SF have tested but for most ops I suspect SF might use the 108 grain ELD-M or 105 grain BTHP.
Yeah, I agree, and think the 105gr BTHP is the most likely choice for military use. The idea that the 106gr TAP was chosen, results from misleading wording on Hornady's LE website, which is really marketing to police.
They use the same ("Designed to meet the needs of the world's toughest critics...") wording on the web pages that cover the match and hunting bullets.
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/6mm-arc-105-gr-bthp-hornady-black#!/