New To Reloading Question

[PeteS]

Wish more folks would pursue reloading with a bit more conservative mind set. Backing off from max velocity with a half or a whole grain less propellant  can come with some real advantages.

Yet be aware you can back off too much. Some powders have a rather narrow working range for pressure. H4895 is one of few powders that can do rather well with greater reduced loads. The data found in load manuals is meant to be adhered to closely. Backing off 10% from max loads & working up in small increments is recommended for a reason. Some rifles may not work well with a max load.

I would encourage purchasing one or two good load manuals & read them through, thoroughly getting yourself familiar with practices & terminology.

Currently Hornady supports 6mm Load data better than any other load manual I am aware of at this time.

Wish you well.

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Another source of load data, linked below, that I have just came across that may be of interest.
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-dat...tridge=113

Thanks for the info and link.

[PeteS]

So I tried to set up my Lee full length sizing die for 6mm ARC and no matter how much I mess with it it keeps sizing the brass way to long. I'm talking .006 and no matter how much i screw it in deeper or out it won't adjust to bump the shoulder back down. Also overall case length is the same after. What's goin on?

[grayfox]

1. What is the fired shoulder length before resizing? What length after resizing?
2. Don't know if I've mentioned this earlier, but Lee does not have the quality reputation that other dies/presses have, I don't recommend it for anyone who's looking to get into reloading. So it might be the Lee stuff, or it might be the barrel chamber. I had some barrels in 6.5 grendel that would do that and worse, whereas my other barrels the growth after resizing was less therefore better.
3. The resizing dies should be able to resize by bumping the shoulder back by 0.003-0.005, then any excess trimmed to get back with the OAL spec, but certainly not by 0.006

[300BLK]

Fired cases will stretch when full length sized. The sizing die should at least touch the case shoulder if the die contacts the shell holder.

IMO, for a boltgun, neck sized cases should yield better accuracy as the case body is closer to chamber dimension provided the fired cases came from your chamber to begin with. Lee's collet neck sizer squeezes the neck around a mandrel without working the case body, so no stretching results.

[PeteS]

So I pretty sure I figured it out, it was some my fault and mainly the Lee Press I bought. First the press is the Lee Value Turret Press, which I guess it's in the name "Value". The press has a auto index feature which moves the turret with every pull of the handle. I removed the center twisting rod to use it 1 step at a time but with the use of removable turret but of course the detent in the press isn't that strong and the turret can I guess be "slightly" off by the smallest amount and when it comes to measuring in .000 it counts. The turret may of been the culprit with the detent in it which it's only 1 of the 4 holes so I just won't use that hole, don't need it anyway. Switched holes and it's workin way better, I can get it within .001,.002, and .003. 2nd was slighty my fault I guess, where I mounted the press the arm swings under the work bench and you could barely see light through the bottom of the support "beam" of the bench and I relieved the wood so it wouldn't touch but that was just workin the arm without reloading yet and using the pressure it takes to work the brass. It was off by so little, if I worked it real firm it should of been fine so I'm thinking it was more the press. The turret may of been the culprit with the detent in it which it's only 1 of the 4 holes so I just won't use that hole, don't need it anyway. So far so good. Thanks for responses.

[PeteS]

Also here's a little info on Hornady's factory Black 105 BTHP. I pulled 5 rounds just to see out of curiosity to see why I was gettin so bad ES and SD's and the powder charge average of those 5 were around 30.76 grains. Which is interesting cause all there own load data for Gas Gun specs, which is what they should be loading to for off the shelf ammo, is higher then max charge of all their data except Leverevolution, but even that maxes out at 29.5 in their book. I've heard Hornady loads stuff hot but with a round they made to have different PSI between Gas and Bolt Guns that to me is weird. I also popped/pierced factory loaded Hornady 108 ELDM ammo in my bolt gun also so idk.

[grayfox]

glad you figured it out. Nothing against Lee, and wasn't trying to be too tough, just what I and bunch of others on 65Grendel have found... I do use their "factory crimp" dies, they work for me for the AR loads I do.

On the 105: bear in mind Hornady has bulk powders we don't have access to, so measuring their grains of weight won't tell you much - they are "special blends" and can vary over time. But, they do at times seem to be hot, usually that has been b/c of a shorter than normal chamber in the barrel, or what they did at first was load their 105's too long of OAL for the stubby-type ogive the bullet has, result was they were jamming into lands of the chamber and shooting hot due to the +++p pressure it was all causing. After several lots went out like that at the start of the 6 Arc, they shortened the OAL to around 2.200".
Measure the OAL's of a few of them... to see if by chance you have some of the older lots.

Nowadays the 105 Black shoots almost the best for me out of several hornady loads. ES isn't worth a darn, nor the SD but at 100 yds it does ok.

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You can get close to the factory loads, but with better SD/ES's, by mimicing the MV from whatever length of barrel you have. Example, for my 20" barrels (gas gun), they shoot IIRC around 2660-ish. So do a workup with Lever to try to get around that MV. It's close to a node for 20", if you can get safely up to ~2675-80 the SD/ES will be tighter but that node is fairly wide. For me, I shoot the 103's at ~29.3 Lever (depending on the lot# which is why I say work up. Lot#s MV can vary by 2-5%) so the 105 for me would be around 29.4-5 to get into that window... I don't shoot 105's very much. I like the bergers or the 103 Hdy better, but just my choice.
So depending on your barrel length there's an MV node you can find that will be close or even a bit better for the 105. Best one I had was 2688, SD 7.4 for a particular lot# of Lever I had (all gone now).

[PeteS]

glad you figured it out.  Nothing against Lee, and wasn't trying to be too tough, just what I and bunch of others on 65Grendel have found... I do use their "factory crimp" dies, they work for me for the AR loads I do.

On the 105:  bear in mind Hornady has bulk powders we don't have access to, so measuring their grains of weight won't tell you much - they are "special blends" and can vary over time.  But, they do at times seem to be hot, usually that has been b/c of a shorter than normal chamber in the barrel, or what they did at first was load their 105's too long of OAL for the stubby-type ogive the bullet has, result was they were jamming into lands of the chamber and shooting hot due to the +++p pressure it was all causing.  After several lots went out like that at the start of the 6 Arc, they shortened the OAL to around 2.200". 
Measure the OAL's of a few of them... to see if by chance you have some of the older lots.

Nowadays the 105 Black shoots almost the best for me out of several hornady loads.  ES isn't worth a darn, nor the SD but at 100 yds it does ok.

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You can get close to the factory loads, but with better SD/ES's, by mimicing the MV from whatever length of barrel you have. Example, for my 20" barrels (gas gun), they shoot IIRC around 2660-ish.  So do a workup with Lever to try to get around that MV.  It's close to a node for 20", if you can get safely up to ~2675-80 the SD/ES will be tighter but that node is fairly wide.  For me, I shoot the 103's at ~29.3 Lever (depending on the lot# which is why I say work up.  Lot#s MV can vary by 2-5%) so the 105 for me would be around 29.4-5 to get into that window... I don't shoot 105's very much.  I like the bergers or the 103 Hdy better, but just my choice.
So depending on your barrel length there's an MV node you can find that will be close or even a bit better for the 105.  Best one I had was 2688, SD 7.4 for a particular lot# of Lever I had (all gone now).

Thanks for the info, it's a great help. I have a 26 inch ER Shaw barrel and the accuracy is not bad with factory Black 105gr but the ES was bad, I'm gettin average 2735fps with factory and The Hornady 105 BTHP is what I had easy access to reload, but I'll definetly have to see where my gun likes the FPS best, and try different bullets.

[grayfox]

this is a bolt action...?

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Either bolt or gas gun... look around 2800 fps, est 48 ksi, so should work for either platform.
In the 29.x grs of lever.

[PeteS]

this is a bolt action...?

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Either bolt or gas gun... look around 2800 fps, est 48 ksi, so should work for either platform.
In the 29.x grs of lever.

Yeah it's a bolt gun, Savage Shaw chambered and rifled by ER Shaw 1inch Bull Barrel 1:7twist and 26inch

[ebuttwei]

So I've never reloaded before and I'm starting with 6 ARC. I understand the basics of it but I have a question. My rifle likes the Factory Loaded Hornady 108gr ELDM and the H Black 105gr BTHP, but I keep getting high ES with both 30-35fps ES with the 108gr and 45-50fps ES with the 105gr. I'm assuming that's why I'm getting flyers, cause I'm not sayin I'm the best shooter in the world but I know it's not me or the wind. So I would like to replicate those factory rounds just with control of the amount of powder. I'm gonna pull some of the factory loads and get a guess on the powder but it will be a guess, especially on what type they use. I've heard alot of success with Leverevolution and CFE223. I'll take all the measurements off the factory loads and get a idea of COL and case length and all that. I would appreciate some advice/opinions. Thanks.

I stick with BLC 2 with lighter Bullets and Go with Lever- for the 108's

[popgun]

I would get good brass like Alpha or Lapua. I would try stick powders like Varget, VV N150, it's harder to get smaller ES with ball powders. The most accurate bullets in my gun are 90gr Bergers loaded a few thousandths into the lands. Shooting to 200 yards a high BC bullet has little advantage. 6PPC is almost the same cartridge but generally use slower twist barrels but some reloading data may be of use.

[PeteS]

Here's my first try at this reloading thing. I started with loading Hornady 105gr BTHP and LeverEvolution. Starting from scratch I loaded all of them based off the Hornady Black factory rounds I got the measurements from for the COAL and Base to Ogive. I used CCI 450 Primers and once fired Hornady cases from factory loads. I shot 4-5 rounds for each loaded at different powder weights with LeverEvolution, at the time I only had 27 brass prepped after messing with 3 for setting up dies and trimming, so at 29.0, 29.2, 29.4 they were 5 shots and at 29.6, 29.8, and 30.0gr they were 4 shots. Here's the results. I also loaded some Berger 108gr BT that I will post results later.
           

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Here's my first try at this reloading thing. I started with loading Hornady 105gr BTHP and LeverEvolution. Starting from scratch I loaded all of them based off the Hornady Black factory rounds I got the measurements from for the COAL and Base to Ogive. I used CCI 450 Primers and once fired Hornady cases from factory loads. I shot 4-5 rounds for each loaded at different powder weights with LeverEvolution, at the time I only had 27 brass prepped after messing with 3 for setting up dies and trimming, so at 29.0, 29.2, 29.4 they were 5 shots and at 29.6, 29.8, and 30.0gr they were 4 shots. Here's the results.

And here's my other loaded results. And here's the Average FPS for each.
29.0 - 2726
29.2 - 2724
29.4 - 2731
29.6 - 2789
29.8 - 2842
30.0 - 2858
All from my Savage Shaw 26inch Barrel.
           

[300BLK]

I would try either 29.0 or 30.0 and change seating depth to tune to your rifle.

Do you know how much jump you have at that OAL?

[PeteS]

I would try either 29.0 or 30.0 and change seating depth to tune to your rifle.

Do you know how much jump you have at that OAL?

The difference between my chamber measurement and the OAL of the H 105 BTHP I loaded is .0205. I'm new to all these different measurements so is that sounding about right for the jump to the rifling?

[PeteS]

Here's the results of loading the Berger 108 BT. The Bergers shot better but I shot them before measuring my chamber so I just loaded them to Hornady's load data sayin OAL of 2.260 and after measuring my chamber the OAL of the Bergers I loaded turned out to be the same measurement of my chamber so there was no jump to the lands. So the groups were better with the Bergers except the 30.0 and 30.3gr of LeverEvolution cause 2 of the 5 I shot at 30.0gr were slightly longer OAL, not that much but were a little tight on closing, cause the cases were real full of powder and the 2 were before I shook the powder down to get to 2.260. Also the Hornady 105gr BTHP bullets didn't weight as consistent, the Berger 108gr BT weighed exactly the same which I guess helped too. There was also 10-15mph winds but it was the only day I could shoot. Oh well.                    

Here's the average FPS.
29.0 - 2735
29.3 - 2768
29.6 - 2799
30.0 - 2845
30.3 - 2915
Also the 30.0gr had 2 tight rounds and the other 3 went almost in the same hole and the fps of those 3 were, 2850.1, 2850.2, and 2851.6 which was pretty nice, but at 30.3gr of LeverEvolution I was gettin close to Hornady's Factory 6mm Creedmoor 108gr, to me that seems real fast. But there was no pressure signs or anything.

[BD1]

Not too shabby for a new reloader ! I'd go for the 29 grains under the 105s and the 29.3 grains under the 108s and work on it from there. It looks like the rifle is capable, and so is the shooter!
Speaking just for myself, as soon as I get in the 1/2 MOA territory I usually move out to 200 yards and shoot an OAL ladder as the extra range seems to help me helps sort thing out. Before I had a "good" scale, I would often lean toward the load in the middle of the tightly grouping powder range, figuring that scale error would be less significant that way.
When accuracy is very close between loads, I'll always start working with the lowest charge that makes the grade and start moving even farther out. The choice between the H105s and the B108s may be more about how how they fly in the wind at longer ranges. rather than a tenth of an inch at 100 yards.

[PeteS]

Not too shabby for a new reloader !  I'd go for the 29 grains under the 105s and the 29.3 grains under the 108s and work on it from there. It looks like the rifle is capable, and so is the shooter!
Speaking just for myself, as soon as I get in the 1/2 MOA territory I usually move out to 200 yards and shoot an OAL ladder as the extra range seems to help me helps sort thing out.  Before I had a "good" scale, I would often lean toward the load in the middle of the tightly grouping powder range, figuring that scale error would be less significant that way.
When accuracy is very close between loads, I'll always start working with the lowest charge that makes the grade and start moving even farther out. The choice between the H105s and the B108s may be more about how how they fly in the wind at longer ranges. rather than a tenth of an inch at 100 yards.

Thanks for the response, I'm definetly gonna go to 200 next.

[300BLK]

I would try either 29.0 or 30.0 and change seating depth to tune to your rifle.

Do you know how much jump you have at that OAL?

The difference between my chamber measurement and the OAL of the H 105 BTHP I loaded is .0205. I'm new to all these different measurements so is that sounding about right for the jump to the rifling?

Are you indicating 20 thousandths or 205 thousandths?  The former is reasonable, and the latter seems ridiculous.

[PeteS]

I would try either 29.0 or 30.0 and change seating depth to tune to your rifle.

Do you know how much jump you have at that OAL?

The difference between my chamber measurement and the OAL of the H 105 BTHP I loaded is .0205. I'm new to all these different measurements so is that sounding about right for the jump to the rifling?

Are you indicating 20 thousandths or 205 thousandths?  The former is reasonable, and the latter seems ridiculous.

I'd have to check my notes I wrote down, but here's a pic.    

The right one is a Factory Hornady Black 105 BTHP, and the left is the Dummy round I made for my Chamber. The chamber one is barely longer. The bullets r scratched up from other setups and tests. Or r you asking about the Bergers I loaded. Cause the Berger 108 BT loaded to 2.260 were fine, but were actually loaded to mabye 1 thounsandth off jam before me measuring my chamber.