Need Help with Hornady Full Length Die

[gkf]

I have never used Hornady dies (I admit I am a Redding fanboy), but it was my only alternative for 6mm ARC.

My problem is that while the die is sizing the shoulder perfectly, it seems it is barely touching the neck.  The neck
tension is way too loose and many of the case mouths aren't close to being round.

On my Redding dies, I can feel the expander ball working, but this Hornady die I don't feel the expander ball at all.

Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong?

Thank you.

[grayfox]

Assuming you got a 6Arc die and not a 6.5 grendel...
Only things I can think of is, is the primer removal pin sticking out below the sizer die mouth so you can see it? Maybe the expander isn't even getting down to the case neck.
Also, measure the diameter of the expander ball with your calipers to ensure it is 0.243".

[CZ527 Guy]

Id say double check your die description, then give Hornady a call & get one of there Techs on the line to talk you through this. From what I am hearing Id say you received an incorrect die for the application at hand. If so when you have hornady on the line if this is the conclusion they come to Id guess they may have you a replacement die in hand within two business days.

So my question is how is the die box, labled? & how is the die labeled? Then you & the Tech can talk the rest through.

[gkf]

Id say double check your die description, then give Hornady a call & get one of there Techs on the line to talk you through this. From what I am hearing Id say you received an incorrect die for the application at hand. If so when you have hornady on the line if this is the conclusion they come to Id guess they may have you a replacement die in hand within two business days.

So my question is how is the die box, labled? & how is the die labeled? Then you & the Tech can talk the rest through.

CZ527,
So I took your advice and called Hornady.  We went over the part no. on the box, my procedures, results, etc. and he was stumped.  He said that the only thing I could do was to send the die to them for inspection.  (It's going out tomorrow)

What you said got me thinking. What if it is the wrong die body with the correct 6mm expander ball?  Is it possible that a 65 Grendel die body could bump back a 6 ARC case?  If so, that would explain why the neck is not getting constricted.

Anyway, thanks for the reply.

Glenn

[StoneHendge]

A 6.5 Grendel body will have the shoulder 0.03" higher but maybe it's possible to screw it down that far. Do you have have any Grendel brass you could run through it?

[CZ527 Guy]

I doubt you could bump the shoulder w a 6. 5 grendel die as the die should hit your shell holder prior to touching the shoulder. How is it that you are sure you had bumped the shoulder?

Look forward to what answer Hornady has for you. Sounds like this is going to be stretched out longer than I anticipated.

BTW Whidden is another option not inexpensive though an option. may be more than you were wishing for. I purchased my first & only Whidden die in 6mm Arc and will say I am pleased. also purchased there shoulder bump gauge & am very happy w all products thus far.

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/...ing-kit-2/

[gkf]

A 6.5 Grendel body will have the shoulder 0.03" higher but maybe it's possible to screw it down that far. Do you have have any Grendel brass you could run through it?

Unfortunately, no.  I don't shoot 65 Grendel

---

I doubt you could bump the shoulder w a 6. 5 grendel die as the die should hit your shell holder prior to touching the shoulder. How is it that you are sure you had bumped the shoulder?

Look forward to what answer Hornady has for you. Sounds like this is going to be stretched out longer than I anticipated.

BTW Whidden is another option not inexpensive though an option. may be more than you were wishing for. I purchased my first & only Whidden die in 6mm Arc and will say I am pleased. also purchased there shoulder bump gauge & am very happy w all products thus far.

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/...ing-kit-2/

I measured some fired cases with the Hornady comparator as a reference. 

Those Whidden dies look nice.  I might have to buy those even if Hornady figures something out.  If I had known about Whidden I probably would have purchased them in the first place.

Thanks for the tip.

[pazdad]

did you put a mic on the expander? what did it read?
I use Redding National Match die sets on 308, 223 and 220 swift. My first set of Hornady was with 6 ARC. They are working fine for me.
When I have issues I try starting with basics:
Run the press ram completely up, but first back off neck sizer/primer decap several turns or remove it completely, screw size die body down until it touches the shell holder, once it touches back it off 1/4 turn for starters. This amount of back off will vary with the press but is a good place to start. You can always adjust it later for shoulder bump. Next Install a fired and lubed case in shell holder and run it up all the way up into the die stopping at the top of the stroke leaving the case completely in the sizer die and at top of stroke. Next screw the neck sizer all the way down until you feel it touching the the top of the case neck. Next lower the case out of the sizer die, then screw the neck sizer down a few more turns, then run the same case back up and you should be able to feel the resistance of the neck button/expander in contact with the case neck. Continue the above sequence until you can feel the expander exit the bottom of the case neck inside the case.
Let me know if this helps. If you can feel the resistance and extra force needed to move the expander inside the case neck you are there.

[gkf]

Hi Pazdad,

The expander wasn't the problem. For some reason the die body was not constricting the neck at all. I went over all the set up steps with the Hornady product support specialist and he was stumped and had me send the die to him.

After I shipped Hornady my die, I ended up ordering the Whidden die set. Should be hear on Monday. I will post a review of the set and shooting results

[tlbaker]

I also have an issue with my Hornady sizing die.  The package label indicates 6mm ARC part number 046262 and the die is labeled 6mm ARC.  However, my reloads will not chamber.  They are ~ .002 larger in diameter than my Hornady factory ammo.  I have the resizing die touching the shell holder on my Bonanza (Forster) press so there is no more adjustment there.  I do not have a case gage yet as they are more rare than the dies or I would have seen the issue during die adjustment.  I am going to call Hornady tomorrow to see if they have any advice.  Nothing ruins a range day faster than the first round stuck in the chamber!

[Thelaststraw]

Not sure about what brass you are using but it's possible that spring back is causing the excessive diameter. I had similar issues initially and it was solved with annealing converted starline grendel brass.

[StoneHendge]

Factory ammo uses base sized brass at minimum SAAMI spec while the Hornady die will not size it down to minimum spec, so the diameter of your sized brass is likely not the problem.

Are you confirming that you're bumping the shoulder down with a comparator?

[Thelaststraw]

Factory ammo uses base sized brass at minimum SAAMI spec while the Hornady die will not size it down to minimum spec, so the diameter of your sized brass is likely not the problem.

Are you confirming that you're bumping the shoulder down with a comparator?

  The shoulder was where I had problems with specifically. I didn't anneal my brass and some wouldn't go into battery fully when magazine fed. Slamming them home from a locked bolt would do it. After 1x fired they were good to go. 

Interesting about the Hornady dies though. I thought they did size to saami min. Learn something new every day (especially me when it comes to rifle cartridges....lol)

[StoneHendge]

TLS, the RCBS Base Size dies size to SAAMI minimum, while I think it's probably safe to assume that most chambers are reamed near max. The base sized virgin brass vs larger diameter sized brass is why it's a little pointless to do load development with virgin brass - case capacity will change as well as the pressure curve as the base sized brass needs to expand more to fill the chamber. I used to base size some .223, but it resulted in more frequent trimming.

[Old Bob]

I also have an issue with my Hornady sizing die.  The package label indicates 6mm ARC part number 046262 and the die is labeled 6mm ARC.  However, my reloads will not chamber.  They are ~ .002 larger in diameter than my Hornady factory ammo.  I have the resizing die touching the shell holder on my Bonanza (Forster) press so there is no more adjustment there.  I do not have a case gage yet as they are more rare than the dies or I would have seen the issue during die adjustment.  I am going to call Hornady tomorrow to see if they have any advice.  Nothing ruins a range day faster than the first round stuck in the chamber!

You can get a case gauge from L. E. Wilson. It might take a month or more but you'll get a great tool. I have Wilson case gauges for all the rifle cases I reload...   https://lewilson.com/gages

Whidden gun works has a case gauge you can use to adjust your shoulder set back. 6mm ARC is in stock now...

https://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/case-gauge-3/

[tlbaker]

The brass I have is once fired Hornady 6mm ARC.  These are from both 108gr Match and 103gr Hunter ammo.  I do not have a comparator or gage but looking at the SAMMI spec sheet and factory ammo vs reloads, it sure looks there is no shoulder bump.  Assuming this is correct, does that point to a problem with the sizing die since typically you set shoulder bump by adjusting the die?

I have no experience with or equipment for annealing.  This may be a necessary investment if it will help with the sizing.  

I plan to call Hornady tomorrow to see if they can enlighten me.

[StoneHendge]

They will likely ask you if your using one of these https://www.hornady.com/headspace-bushings#!/

It measures the distance from the case head to a datum line on the shoulder so you can see how much you are bumping the shoulder down. The price is absurd for something that probably costs a few yuan to make, but it works for every bottleneck cartridge out there - even the calibers that don't exist yet.

[Thelaststraw]

Have you measured any of your fired brass to compare that to sized brass? What actually comes out of your chamber outlines the direction you need to go at the press in my limited experience.

[tlbaker]

I spoke to Hornady yesterday and followed up with Forster today because I was skeptical about Hornady's solution.  The Tech Rep asked me if I set the press to cam over and my reply was "no the die just touches the shell holder and I do not see any cam over in the press".  He indicated I needed to adjust the die down slightly which I did while he waited.  This made things better where the sized brass would chamber but I was still skeptical.  Forster tech support verified this solution with the following: Thanks for contacting us about this, there is no issue with putting some cam over in the press.  If you have tight cut die and a tightly chambered rifle it might take this additional 1/4 turn to remove any slack in the linkage and float from the die.  Often the ability for a case to chamber easily or not is the matter of a couple thousandths of an inch, this can usually be found within the press.  This makes me a believer but I am going to wait on a case gage to do the final adjustment.  I have not experienced this issue with any other dies and the co ax press so that was the basis for questioning Hornady' solution.

Fired brass and sized brass measure from 1.490 to 1.495.  Looking at the SAMMI cartridge/chamber specs these are long but will still chamber.  What would be the max length and trim-to length?  Diameters seem to be in spec so it almost has to be a shoulder bump problem but I need the gage.

[Dino11]

After sizing I trim my brass to 1.480, your brass is pretty long and that could be a problem even if it does chamber.

What is the inside diameter of you neck after sizing?