Posts: 67
Threads: 8
Joined: Dec 2023
12-18-2023, 05:32 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2023, 05:34 PM by Diesel Pro.)
In case any of you are Forster users I am working with Forster on this:
FW: I have your co-ax press and the 2 die sets for 204, 22-250, 243, 260, and most recently 6mm ARC and 223. What I am finding with the 6mm ARC is that the seater tube is leaving a very noticeable impression aka "ring around the collar" on the bullets. I have seen others reference this on you tube so sounds like I am not the only one having this issue. I'm wondering if you have a solution? I may look to see if I can swap in the 243 stem and see how that goes.
Note: I am loading conventional varmint bullets in the 65-87gr range and not the new style long and heavy. I did push back a couple of factory loaded Hornady 105 black and it did not seem to imprint on the jacket.
To me this comes down to: WTF were they thinking? The bullets are the same (but different) but I would sure think that the old 243 stem would be better than that sharp drinking straw POS they are using.
Pic of the 243 Win and 6mm arc stems:
Posts: 37
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2023
Probably as simple as using a Expanding Mandrel die before seating. Next scrap the Forster Seater Die and get a Wilson.
Posts: 143
Threads: 10
Joined: Oct 2023
I have seen the ring on a few different loads and calipers. Since I’m not competing I just shoot them. I have never seen a bullet be compromised due to the ring. Do I like it? No. Do I care for my purposes? Not really.
For my new 6 Arc build I did purchase the neck mandrel to set tension. On this gun I will be paying attention and be looking for every edge I can get.
Posts: 37
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2023
I have a Forster Sizing Die and a Wilson Seating Die. I don't have a ring problem (yet) and if I ever do, I'll just shoot them as foulers since all I shoot anymore is paper.
Posts: 67
Threads: 8
Joined: Dec 2023
I'm still messing around with Hornady brass from factory loads. Some of my loads have pretty solid tension. I'm bumping some deeper because I've had issues getting the bolt into battery. Working through my chamber length with the Hornady comparator. For whatever reason my first very gentle press on the slide gets me a short measurement and a little more pressure pushes the bullet deeper until another stop.
I plan to try the 243 stem as it just seems like so much better fit and looks like it will work with the long and heavies as well.
Posts: 143
Threads: 10
Joined: Oct 2023
Interested to hear how it works. With my Lapua Scenar loads in Creedmoor I do get the rings. I just ordered the expanding mandrel for 6.5 and will see if that changes anything.
Posts: 37
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2023
The expanding mandrel WILL open the neck a little and decrease seating pressure, i.e. no ring.
Posts: 67
Threads: 8
Joined: Dec 2023
Here is a picture of the ring. Neck tension/seating force fairly significant, but it just looks like the stem is contacting the bullet in a bad place and in a very narrow area.
Posts: 143
Threads: 10
Joined: Oct 2023
12-21-2023, 05:38 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-21-2023, 05:38 PM by SpeyRod.)
(12-21-2023, 04:29 PM)Diesel Pro Wrote: Here is a picture of the ring. Neck tension/seating force fairly significant, but it just looks like the stem is contacting the bullet in a bad place and in a very narrow area.
The focus makes it difficult to see but that looks extreme. Have you tried using a vld deburing tool and have you measured neck tension?
Posts: 893
Threads: 35
Joined: Jun 2020
That pronounced of a ring, to me, says something is drastically wrong. I've been reloading for years, decades actually, and the only rings I've seen are very slight. Very. Ablr's had some of the more pronounced for me but nothing at all like the picture.
Plus your saying that a lot of force is involved, again, that should not be the case at all.
I don't have any special seaters, just the normals supplied with the dies. Sure a vld-specific can help for those vld's but I have not seen any driving need for them in my bullets. I don't think the seater-mouth is the culprit here.
I half wonder about either the case prep or the powder charge-being too much.
As to case prep, are you deburring the inner mouth with a VLD chamfer? Every time, new or x-fired. That allows the bullet to slide in without having to overcome a "ridge" on the inside of the case mouth. That alone can make a big difference.
Posts: 67
Threads: 8
Joined: Dec 2023
I think we are compressed at the point that I took this picture which is when I went to push them back a bit deeper The ring was there only less pronounced from initial loading. I loaded a bunch of new brass with my 243 stem and have had no issues and very consistent feel in the stroke of the press. The Hornady brass does seem a bit snug.
I don't have any ELD's to try with the 243 stem. The 6arc stem is obviously set up for the ELD's to contact behind the hollow cavity.
All of my brass is cleaned in ultrasonic and run through the RCBS trim mate prep center to clean primer holes and cut chamfer inside and out on the necks prior to loading.
Posts: 893
Threads: 35
Joined: Jun 2020
All good thanks.
One more thing I do since the time I got some case neck failures, I do a 1-shot to get both inside the neck and outside, for the resizing. A super dry inner neck has caused me some neck separations, 6.5 Creedmoor however at 4th firing, so now a bit of lube to reduce the work hardening.
I do a lee fcd to give them a slight crimp, for the ARs.
Posts: 84
Threads: 4
Joined: Oct 2023
I had used Bonanza Benchrest dies years ago in a Bonanza Co-ax press, and thought they worked well. Now renamed Forster, I expected the dies to still be top shelf, and I'm in need of a die set, so was going to be my choice. I'm curious to hear Forster's response.
If the wall of that seater stem were a little thicker, I might have suggested putting a chamfer on it. I've done that with some other brand seaters in the past.
As for Hornady, I've had a couple of sets of their dies. Their seater is a poor attempt to mimic the Forster, and their sizer no better than Lee's full length sizer.
Posts: 67
Threads: 8
Joined: Dec 2023
(12-23-2023, 01:35 AM)300BLK Wrote: I had used Bonanza Benchrest dies years ago in a Bonanza Co-ax press, and thought they worked well. Now renamed Forster, I expected the dies to still be top shelf, and I'm in need of a die set, so was going to be my choice. I'm curious to hear Forster's response.
If the wall of that seater stem were a little thicker, I might have suggested putting a chamfer on it. I've done that with some other brand seaters in the past.
As for Hornady, I've had a couple of sets of their dies. Their seater is a poor attempt to mimic the Forster, and their sizer no better than Lee's full length sizer.
I'll clip a few lines from Forster's replies:
1) Do you know what neck tensions you’re loading into or if it’s a compressed load or not? Also, what bullets are you seeing this on?
Our remedy to the “ring on the bullet” issue has been our custom polished seating stem (form attached). We have been developing a prototype stem that we’re hoping eliminates this issue. If you reply with your address, I can get a prototype stem out to you to test.
2) The need for adapting the seating stem profile has been an ever changing revolving door with all the different bullet profiles on the market.
3) We seldom see that the seating stem may contact the bullet ogive at an unsupported portion of the jacket (i.e – there’s no lead under the copper jacket). This is where the ring issue comes from. Our custom polish service lowers the stem contact point on the bullet to a more solid part of the bullet.
Posts: 143
Threads: 10
Joined: Oct 2023
I am tempted to polish mine for giggles and kicks. But on my 107smk’s I didn’t get a ring to speak of using 2 thousands neck tension.
Posts: 67
Threads: 8
Joined: Dec 2023
I asked about the prototype stem, but I am guessing they are out for holiday week. I also think I may need to have my FL sizer die shortened just a bit. It's not pushing back much and I have adjusted to where the face hits the shell holder. I may or may not opt for a bushing die for this round
Posts: 67
Threads: 8
Joined: Dec 2023
Still no word on prototype stem, but so far I'm doing fine. I loaded some 90 ELDX using the 243 seating stem and no problems. I have some 103 that I am looking to try as well.
Measured loaded round versus sized case and I have .001" neck tension with my Forster FL die.
Posts: 67
Threads: 8
Joined: Dec 2023
I had a look at the stem in my other newest Forster die 223 rem. from 2023. It looks similar to the 6 arc stem. Much less contact area/taper compared to my older 22-250 stem shown in the picture for comparison. To me it looks like they are not trying to match the shape of different bullets so much as cut cost.
Posts: 57
Threads: 4
Joined: Feb 2024
(12-18-2023, 05:32 PM)Diesel Pro Wrote: In case any of you are Forster users I am working with Forster on this:
FW: I have your co-ax press and the 2 die sets for 204, 22-250, 243, 260, and most recently 6mm ARC and 223. What I am finding with the 6mm ARC is that the seater tube is leaving a very noticeable impression aka "ring around the collar" on the bullets. I have seen others reference this on you tube so sounds like I am not the only one having this issue. I'm wondering if you have a solution? I may look to see if I can swap in the 243 stem and see how that goes.
Note: I am loading conventional varmint bullets in the 65-87gr range and not the new style long and heavy. I did push back a couple of factory loaded Hornady 105 black and it did not seem to imprint on the jacket.
To me this comes down to: WTF were they thinking? The bullets are the same (but different) but I would sure think that the old 243 stem would be better than that sharp drinking straw POS they are using.
Pic of the 243 Win and 6mm arc stems: As mentioned. Some of the bullets we use have pretty soft jackets. The mandrel can be a lil sharp too. I have polished most I own.
Another point is neck tension. Do you know yours? Might be a lil heavy.
personally Id polish the sharpness out and look at neck tension.
good luck
CW
Posts: 37
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2023
CW's spot on. I believe it's mostly neck tension which is why I cut some Mandrels for my Lee universal dies.
|
