Berger 109 LR Hybrid and Lapua Scenar 105’s

[SpeyRod]

Has anyone loaded these bullets? Wondering if you found any magic with one powder vs another. I plan to start with Varget and move out from there. Looking for a good 1,000 yd bullet.

Thanks

[BD1]

I just finished my build this weekend, and I have both Berger 109 hybrids and Lapua 105 Scenars on hand, along with plenty of Varget and BLC-2. Unfortunately the road into the range is still closed for mud season. I'll post results when I get some.

[SpeyRod]

I just finished my build this weekend, and I have both Berger 109 hybrids and Lapua 105 Scenars on hand, along with plenty of Varget and BLC-2. Unfortunately the road into the range is still closed for mud season.  I'll post results when I get some.

thanks. I look forward to it.

[SpeyRod]

Work up of these bullets are done. Here is how it went.

105 Scenar Varget 24.5-25.7, 2,319.5 - 2,462.6, 2,360 Brass looks good.
105 Scenar LVR 26.2-27.4, 2,435.6-2,569.7, expected 2,450 last 5 in .5 moa. More testing!
109 LRH Varget 23.6-25, 2.266.7-2,389.7, expected 2,350 good accuracy
109 LRH CFE223 26.1-27.3, 2,357.9-2,442.8, expected 2,386 good accuracy

Now I need to test for groups. The 109 at .02 off was too long for magazine loading. I’ll have to test it shorter.

I like where this is going.

[KMW1954]

Have an opportunity to pick up an open box (950?) 105 Scenar for a fellow league shooter for $250.00 but I have no idea how these will shoot in my rifle so I am on the fence with these.

[SpeyRod]

I have run the Scenar’s in my Gap 6.5c and now this 6Arc. They are my go to for the Creedmoor. I buy them by the thousand for than gun over all other bullets. The more I use them the more I like them. I’ll be testing them for accuracy tomorrow and hopefully at 1,000 Sunday. I’ll report back and let you know. But so far I am sold on them.

[300BLK]

if you haven't tried it, I would suggest Wincheter 748 for those heavy bullets

[BD1]

I got out this week with a few loads of the 105 Scenars and the Berger 109s over Varget. Unfortunately I have no idea how to post a picture in a reply on this site. Long story short, I learned a few things:
1. The Forstner "Ultra" seating die does an excellent job seating VLDs, (probably any secant ogive bullet, in my case Berger 109s), but totally sucks at seating any tangent ogive bullet, (in my case the Lapua 105 scenars). The design of the die is great, the seating stem is just about the diameter of a fired case neck and it travels in a tube that slides concentric with the neck with the case in a tight chamber so everything is aligned very well. The problem is that this means it contacts a tangent ogive projectile way out near the nose so the datum point seating depth varies a lot. .024 in my 20 round sample of lapua 105s. I Called Forstner and they offered to make me a custom seating stem if I sent them some fire formed and sized cases and a handful of the scenars. But when I took the die apart and miked it, that stem would have to have a 1/4" long end that was paper thin to get to the datum point, (.240) on a tangent ogive bullet). Not practical IMHO. So I sent the die back to Midsouth, (hoping for a refund), and ordered the Wilson seater with both stems.
2. On Wednesday I shot a few of both bullets at 100 yds loaded light, and seated comfortably short of the lands, to get some chrony data for a baseline and some fired brass to set up the dies and measure case capacity. 40 deg F, wind 20 to 25 mph at 12;00 o'clock. The day wasn't great. The Scenars couldn't break 1 Moa, (duh, with the OAL all over the place form the Forstner seating die), but at 25.5 grains of Varget the Berger 109s produced a 3/4" three shot group that I could walk into the center of the target with the last two shots, Enough to make me think I could move out to 200 yards where things get meaningful. No pressure signs and velocities well below max.
3. this morning I went back out with an abbreviated pressure ladder for the Berger 109s loaded longer, (2.30) and five Scenars loaded at 26 grains of Varget .1 into the lands, (2.260). The scenars made a 1-1/2 group at 200 nothing to write home about. The Berger ladder was mediocre until I got up over 26 grains when they started to tighten up. At 26.4 I printed four shots into 9/16" , with one flyer opening the group to 1-1/2". Av Vel 2516, SD 8.1. This shows promise. This barrel has less than 30 rounds on it and I really don't expect it to settle in until at least 75 rounds. The white oak barrel on my .223 didn't settle down until 100 rounds.

[SpeyRod]

I got out this week with a few loads of the 105 Scenars and the Berger 109s over Varget. Unfortunately I have no idea how to post a picture in a reply on this site. Long story short, I learned a few things:
1. The Forstner "Ultra" seating die does an excellent job seating VLDs, (probably any secant ogive bullet, in my case Berger 109s), but totally sucks at seating any tangent ogive bullet, (in my case the Lapua 105 scenars). The design of the die is great, the seating stem is just about the diameter of a fired case neck and it travels in a tube that slides concentric with the neck with the case in a tight chamber so everything is aligned very well. The problem is that this means it contacts a tangent ogive projectile way out near the nose so the datum point seating depth varies a lot. .024 in my 20 round sample of lapua 105s. I Called Forstner and they offered to make me a custom seating stem if I sent them some fire formed and sized cases and a handful of the scenars. But when I took the die apart and miked it, that stem would have to have a 1/4" long end that was paper thin to get to the datum point, (.240) on a tangent ogive bullet). Not practical IMHO. So I sent the die back to Midsouth, (hoping for a refund), and ordered the Wilson seater with both stems.
2. On Wednesday I shot a few of both bullets at 100 yds loaded light, and seated comfortably short of the lands,  to get some chrony data for a baseline and some fired brass to set up the dies and measure case capacity. 40 deg F, wind 20 to 25 mph at 12;00 o'clock. The day wasn't great. The Scenars couldn't break 1 Moa, (duh, with the OAL all over the place form the Forstner seating die), but at 25.5 grains of Varget the Berger 109s produced a 3/4" three shot group that I could walk into the center of the target with the last two shots, Enough to make me think I could move out to 200 yards where things get meaningful. No pressure signs and velocities well below max.
3. this morning I went back out with an abbreviated pressure ladder for the Berger 109s loaded longer, (2.30) and five Scenars loaded at 26 grains of Varget .1 into the lands, (2.260).  The scenars made a 1-1/2 group at 200 nothing to write home about. The Berger ladder was mediocre until I got up over 26 grains when they started to tighten up. At 26.4 I printed four shots into 9/16" , with one flyer opening the group to 1-1/2".  Av Vel 2516, SD 8.1. This shows promise. This barrel has less than 30 rounds on it and I really don't expect it to settle in until at least 75 rounds. The white oak barrel on my .223 didn't settle down until 100 rounds.

Interesting issue with the Forester die. I am using their Ultramicrometer die and it is consistent within +- .001 and it’s rarely that far off. It does show signs of contact further up on both the Scenar’s and the LRH’s. I am not pushing the 109’s as hard as you at 25 grains Varget. I may try moving up a little more to see if my sd comes down.

---

Accuracy testing day today. This is two 5 shot groups with each 27.4 LVR, 25.0 Varget and CFE223. The last three groups definitely show signs of a magazine issue that I have had crop up. I need to test some different magazines. I am pretty happy with the 105’s over LVR running 2,567 and the 109’s over Varget running 2,353.

---

if you haven't tried it, I would suggest Wincheter 748 for those heavy bullets

I’ll see if I can find some. Thanks.

[BD1]

Are you measuring the variation on seating depth with the Forstner die on the Lapua 105s at tase head to tip, (COAL), or at the case head to datum line?  My experience with the case had to tip of the bullet was =/- .005, but IMHO that is not the dimension that determines accuracy. I care a lot more about case head to datum line, (where the ogive contacts the lands). Thats the issue I had with the Forstner Ultra micrometer seating die.

---

So today when I reply to a post I see a button to "add attachment". Maybe I can post pics now. Something to do with paying to join?

[KMW1954]

I have been able to post a picture using attach w/o having to pay.
Not as seamless as some forums but it works.

[SpeyRod]

Are you measuring the variation on seating depth with the Forstner die on the Lapua 105s at tase head to tip, (COAL), or at the case head to datum line?  My experience with the case had to tip of the bullet was =/- .005, but IMHO that is not the dimension that determines accuracy. I care a lot more about case head to datum line, (where the ogive contacts the lands). Thats the issue I had with the Forstner Ultra micrometer seating die.

---

So today when I reply to a post I see a button to "add attachment". Maybe I can post pics now. Something to do with paying to join?

I am measuring ogive length. I gave up on overall length 20 years ago.

---

I also found a couple more Grendel mags in my stash and ordered some more online. I don’t like having mag issues affecting my accuracy.

[BD1]

These are the pics of the groups I found most interesting. The 3/4" group @ 100 yards which I walked to zero to check the dials on my recently repaired Vortex 5-25, and the 1-1/2" group at 200 with 4 shots in 9/16. I had made a note on my bench tablet that I pulled one, but I can't say for sure that's the flyer as it is in the black where I can't see it at 200 so it could also have been the one in the black part of the tight group of 4. But this load looks promising.

[BD1]

Are you measuring the variation on seating depth with the Forstner die on the Lapua 105s at tase head to tip, (COAL), or at the case head to datum line?  My experience with the case had to tip of the bullet was =/- .005, but IMHO that is not the dimension that determines accuracy. I care a lot more about case head to datum line, (where the ogive contacts the lands). Thats the issue I had with the Forstner Ultra micrometer seating die.

---

So today when I reply to a post I see a button to "add attachment". Maybe I can post pics now. Something to do with paying to join?

I am measuring ogive length. I gave up on overall length 20 years ago.

---

I also found a couple more Grendel mags in my stash and ordered some more online. I don’t like having mag issues affecting my accuracy.

I've been using two 10 round Duramags and they seem to work without any issue, so I just ordered some 20 rounders. However the 40 rounds I've fired so far, loaded five at a time, is not a significant sample.  The 10 round Duramaga allow seating to 2.30 which is another big plus IMO.  I'll report on the 20 rounders when I get a chance to load some more.

[SpeyRod]

Thanks for the mag info. I shot the 20 round elander today at 1,000 and my shots were pretty consistent. I’m looking forward to testing the new mags.

I may push the 109 a little harder. At 25 gr of Varget I clocked 7 rounds at 2,361 with an sd of 14.3. That’s at 60 degrees. The 105’s clocked 2,565 with an sd of 9.1.

---

Shot 1,000 this am with the arc. Two loads to test. Both performed extremely well given I forgot my chair! FWIW, shooting from kneeling at 1,000 is a good way to waste bullets. Even thoug, I got a second round hit with the Berger 109LRH. Entered the applied ballistics dope, 44 moa up and 6.5 moa left for wind. I dialed 40 and was supposed to hold 4. First shot I forgot to hold and was 3moa low. Held 3moa and nailed it. Ended up getting two hits out of 7 shots which I consider good since I was shooting from kneeling. Definitely not the most stable position. The second load, 105 Scenar, was a little more difficult. Dope said 40 moa up and 10 left. Didn’t see the first two hits so held low and bingo, dope was off by 2 moa high and 5 moa left. That put the rounds in the bushes. After adjusting I put 3 in the same spot, just off the left. I called it good and quit before I wasted any more ammo.

Two hits plus the missing hit from last weekend next to the bolt. Bullet still stuck in the hanger.

[BD1]

That looks promising. I'm thinking I've got a node around 25.5 Varget with the 109s and again around 26.4. When the Wilson die shows up I'll do a .1 grain ladder for both. 440 yards is as far as I can shoot without traveling.

[SpeyRod]

105 Scenar’s top, 109 Berger’s bottom.
Shot 600 today then moved out to 1,000. Top load was the 105 Scenar’s. Bottom 109 LRH Berger’s.


105 Scenar’s at 1,000 with 8mph full value wind. My spotter helped me walk them in.
6Arc, 1,000 yards, 8mph full value wind. Walking it on. I like it!
One of our shooters hits a leg every time we shoot 1,000. Today he did not disappoint.
Shooting buddy hits a leg every time we shoot 1,000. Today he did not disappoint.

[popgun]

   

[BD1]

105 Scenar’s top, 109 Berger’s bottom.
Shot 600 today then moved out to 1,000. Top load was the 105 Scenar’s. Bottom 109 LRH Berger’s.


105 Scenar’s at 1,000 with 8mph full value wind. My spotter helped me walk them in.
6Arc, 1,000 yards, 8mph full value wind. Walking it on. I like it!
One of our shooters hits a leg every time we shoot 1,000. Today he did not disappoint.
Shooting buddy hits a leg every time we shoot 1,000. Today he did not disappoint.

That's some nice shooting !

[BD1]

So here are the results form the 105 Lapua loaded over Varget toward the upper end. The Wilson seating die made a big difference with the Scenars now grouping more similar to the Bergers at 200 yards. I seem to persist with the one flyer out of every five round group. Maybe it's me? But it seems unlikely I could pull a shot that consistently. It bugs me. The only one I'm sure of is the first shot at 26 grains as I was looking for the 1st CC barrel impact. It may be the brass as the new Starline brass is a full .012 shorter than my once fired brass. Or maybe its a mag issue?  Next time out I'm going to shoot at plain white paper so I can see if it's the same number in the string that makes the flyer.
As QuickLoad does not have the Lapua projectiles in the data base I have been substituting the Nosler 105 gr RDF and the Hornady 105 gr 2524. So far the velocities track the Nosler well enough. I'm going with 26.2 grains of Varget for the bullet seating depth ladder as it nearly matches the QL velocity for the Nosler and it's a little less pressure than the 26.3 load with about the same group size.