IMR 4166 applications in the 6mm ARC

[CZ527 Guy]

Has anyone here given IMR 4166 a try in their 6mm ARC yet? I have this Savage axis that is building up copper more than I was hoping for. Suppose more to my point I am looking for input on the effectiveness of IMR 4166 vs CFE223 & others in terms of reducing copper?

Think I have heard good things about power pro  2000 in most every respect in the 6mm ARC only issue for me with this propellant is finding some.

[grayfox]

I'm using some 4166 in other calibers but don't have a read yet on copper reducing abilities.
You should also consider trying some JB bore paste to smooth out that roughness. For any rack grade barrel I get - and Axis fits that category I do some JB's for a few patches down the tube upon receipt. I like the Axis as a generally good value but the bore paste has worked for me in several barrels. Clean the barrel as much as you can first then do 3-4 patches of JB's, I do anywhere 5-10 passes per patch depending on how the patch looks coming out. It's a smoothing operation not a cleaning one.
Maybe repeat a couple times after some more shooting and see what you think.

[Old Bob]

Has anyone here given IMR 4166 a try in their 6mm ARC yet? I have this Savage axis that is building up copper more than I was hoping for. Suppose more to my point I am looking for input on the effectiveness of IMR 4166 vs CFE223 & others in terms of reducing copper?

Think I have heard good things about power pro  2000 in most every respect in the 6mm ARC only issue for me with this propellant is finding some.

What bullet(s) are you planning to use with IMR4166? I can only find data for 80gr GMX & 88gr Bergers.

[rsbhunter]

May consider using Tubbs final finish kit. Bullets that are coated with various grits that smooth the bores rough spots. I didn't know how I felt about the effectiveness of it til this past weekend at a match, a guy was telling us he had tried it. He was SOLD on it !! He said prior to using it, his gun shot 1-1/2" to 2" @ 100 yards....he said it was now a 3/4" to 1" shooter. I don't know that it wouldn't have to be a last resort measure, and then on an "off the rack" barrel....but it is another option....rsbhunter

[Dino11]

I was getting random flyers and a 1" group with one of my ARC's. I ran the last three grits in my barrel and the group closed up and the random flyers disappeared. I did this after sending 200 rounds down the tube, and before I sent it out to have it Nitrided. After getting it back my groups opened back up a little but then after about 100 rounds the shrunk back down and now it shoots .5 to .75 groups at 100 all day long. I think I am going to do my Odin barrel next, but it already shoot incredible groups so maybe I should just leave it alone. I will probably never shoot it out anyways, I have three of them to shoot along with everything else I have. I was going to take the Odin gun out for the first time this year over the coming weekend.

Do the Tubbs kit but only use the last three grits unless you have a really bad barrel. I bore scoped my barrel before and after, it made a difference. And the barrel is incredibly easy to clean.

[CZ527 Guy]

Has anyone here given IMR 4166 a try in their 6mm ARC yet? I have this Savage axis that is building up copper more than I was hoping for. Suppose more to my point I am looking for input on the effectiveness of IMR 4166 vs CFE223 & others in terms of reducing copper?

Think I have heard good things about power pro  2000 in most every respect in the 6mm ARC only issue for me with this propellant is finding some.

What bullet(s) are you planning to use with IMR4166? I can only find data for 80gr GMX & 88gr Bergers.

Bullets I am looking to try the IMR 4166 with include 85 gr pulled American reloading power shock & 85 gr pulled sp from American reloading.

Just looking to get this broke in before  shooting my preferred hunting bullets. Hoping to find some Power pro 2000 by the time I get around to shooting the 103 gr ELDX & the 108 gr berger Elite Hunters.

[CZ527 Guy]

May consider using Tubbs final finish kit. Bullets that are coated with various grits that smooth the bores rough spots. I didn't know how I felt about the effectiveness of it til this past weekend at a match, a guy was telling us he had tried it. He was SOLD on it !! He said prior to using it, his gun shot 1-1/2" to 2" @ 100 yards....he said it was now a 3/4" to 1" shooter. I don't know that it wouldn't have to be a last resort measure, and then on an "off the rack" barrel....but it is another option....rsbhunter

Yea, I have been considering the Tubbs bore lapping system. Thank you for pushing me over the edge.  Put a kit on order last night & will report back results. Based on reviews the worst I may experience is accuracy could remain the same & more common scenario is accuracy generally tightens up a little better than 30%. Though fouling is reduced 100% of the time & in this case I expect this barrel will stay substantially cleaner with a lot less effort.

Leaning towards using all 50 bullets for this treatment.

[CZ527 Guy]

OK, Giving the Tubbs final finish a go & must say early experience is leaving me in doubt. In doubt of what you ask? I do not think this is anything close to what Tubbs was marketing early on with this system.

Where I am going here is my understanding is that this is supposed to be a lapping process or a process to remove material from the bore. More to the point is these bullets seem to be leaving what ill say looks like plastic or teflon coat on the bore.

When I clean the bore I am seeing and removing way more copper than I ever seen in the past. Using a bronze brush along with bore solvents. And what is different now than any time in the distant past Is now I am able to get a look at what is going on in the bore. with a bore cam I am seeing more than I had in the past

As iI get closer to removing all of the copper I am seeing a thin coat of something every where else in the bore that the bronze brush is scraping loose.

Wth the instructions they recomend firing more rounds on a maintenance type basis after this process is done, on what Id consider to be a fairly regular interval. Think I need to reach out to the company and see if what I received is giving their intended results. I look forward to contacting the company to better understand what I should expect from this product? The bore coating is something I was not expecting.

On a side note the rifle seems to be shooting at least as good as ever with these bullets. This is based on ringing steel plates with the 1st through 4th of five series of bullets. Cleaning has been a drawn out chore each step of the process. Worse than ever.

[Lemonaid]

Thanks for posting your results, it should prove helpful to many considering using products like this. Are you seeing a polishing effect of the bore when viewed with the bore scope? Special scrutiny at the leads as that is usually the rough part that imbues copper fouling farther on.

[CZ527 Guy]

While I am not that proficient with the bore scope Ill still say with a good deal of confidence that the build up of what I think others may relate to if I may suggest looks like teflon coating. Whatever this build up is Has inhibited me from getting a good look at the actual steel in the bore. With each succession of 10 rounds the build up seemed to cover more and more of the bore. Prior to starting this process my experience with copper build up was in the last 4 to 6" of the bore, that is near the muzzle. With the Tubbs final finish this was closer to the exact opposite.

In their instructions they are very adimate about the customer needs to be very meticulous about achieving a clean bore at the start & prior to moving on to the next series of 10 bullets. The instructions suggest using a brass bore brush one size larger along with a good copper cleaner like a couple prominent names of copper removal products. I did achieve a very clean bore at the start & through steps one through three. In excess of 300 passes of a brass brush with my choice of cleaners were required to remove all of the copper after each series.

I have been using the bronze brush from the start to step three. I am hoping to not use the bronze brush on the last two steps & that remains to be seen as to what is required. I have finished the 4th firing series and have been cleaning this time around only with patches and copper removal solutions thus far. To tell the truth I am not optimistic on achieving a clean bore without the bronze brush at this point.

At this point the bore is nearly entirely coated with the secondary residue that I was not expecting along with a great deal of copper.

the secondary residue started to build the most near the muzzle and progressively built up to the rear with each series of 10 bullets. So the secondary residue is preventing a god look at the bore. Until I reach out to the company I have little or no Idea as to weather the secondary residue is expected or not.

[Dino11]

I pretty much had the exact opposite outcome as you. I don't know what type of residue you are getting because the bullets are not moly or teflon coated. They are impregnated with a grit type substance to basically sand away at the rifling in your barrel to smooth it out.

I loaded my bullets with CFE 223, it has a copper erasing ability, but is very sooty. I cleaned my barrel between 10 round sets with Hoppes to remove the carbon, followed by Sweets to remove most of the copper. Then I followed that up using Kroil and JB bore paste mixed together to make a thin paste on a cotton patch. I actually had very little to almost no copper build up in the barrel. The most build up was towards the muzzle end of the barrel .

After the last set of ten were shot I took it home and super cleaned it with the Kroil and JB paste, then sent the barrel out to be Nitrided. After getting it back I had to put at least 150 rounds through it to get it to group as well as it did before. It did not start shooting .5 to .75 groups again until some copper actually started to build in the barrel. And when I say started to build it is still almost non existent, just a few narrow streaks down the edge of the rifling in a couple spots.

This barrel is so smooth inside when you send patches down it it squeaks, so I guess you could say it's squeaky clean. It is also very easy to clean. You know you have a smooth clean bore when they squeak when patched. And it still does not build much copper, and I will not be removing what is in their now as some barrels need some in them to shoot well.

[CZ527 Guy]

Dino11: Any chance you have Bore scoped that barrel?

[Dino11]

The barrel needs cleaned right now, I can bore scope it for you. It's had a few rounds shot through it since the Final Finish kit was used and I only used the last three parts of it. My barrel was in pretty good shape when I started. This one is a Uintah 22" made by Prefered Barrel Blanks, they are owned by Match Grade Machine and make some pretty nice barrels.

I don't go overboard on cleaning it now, every time I clean it real good it takes a few rounds to get it to come back to shooting sub .75 groups. I just make sure I get the carbon out of it and get it oiled, and usually check it with a scope every two or three hundred rounds for copper build up. So far so good.

Get you some Aerokroil penetrating oil and some JB Bore Paste to clean your barrel. The JB has a lapping effect on your barrel, and it will remove the copper. Thinning it down with the kroil will help it remove carbon and lessen the cutting effect of the JB paste. You are basically polishing the inside of your barrel.

[grayfox]

I never did the tubbs, but I can say the jb has worked for me, and is easier and quicker to do than 10, 20, 50 shots/clean, etc...
I have thinned it a bit once in a while as well with some kroil, it goes onto a cloth patch easier and smoother that way. But have only done the jb at the beginning of a new barrel.

[CZ527 Guy]

Completed the last 10 rounds of the TFF this afternoon and copper is still quite a chore to get out of this step as well. Suppose I can figure how to share a photo again. defiantly looks like the bore is coated with a thin film that has steadily built up up through out this process. No bare metal to be seen unless you wish to count the light copper build up. I am surprised & or puzzled by that.

Still working on cleaning the last of the copper. If i did not have the bore cam I just may think the bore was very clean as it does feel slick. Time will tell what I think of this process.

[Old Bob]

I have a Precision Firearms barrel (Criterion) on my 6mm ARC AR. Barrel care & break-in instructions that came with the barrel say to not use Tubb final finish in their barrels or any other abrasive compounds. No moly coated bullets either during break-in.

I have used Tubb's final finish before in my Howa M1500 .308 Win & my Savage M10 .223 Rem with good results. Accuracy improved enough to tell the difference & copper fouling seems to clean-up quicker. It works OK, I guess, but might not be needed for new hand-lapped barrels.