out of Hornady reloading app.
What I got
2700- was 2885,2899, 2878
2800- was 3117,2963, 3017
2850- was 3045,3014 and one round wouldn't chamber ( may have missed it when I sized the last time) checking
2900- was 3033, 3141
2950- was 3123
and
3000- was 3150
The 3050 load filled the brass case so I did not try to compress.
The Factory cases ran 2728,2758, 2742
Rounds below are starting with 2700 to far right in green case working to left with highest at left case wall and the 3000 load at the top of picture.
Factory loads are black case
Take aways from my first reloading experience
1. I am going to check my electronic scale against my manual scale not sure of it.
2. My Magnetospeed loosened after several shots and I didn't catch it soon enough so could have been the strange spreads I got on some.
Below are pictures of the primers
[attachment=687 Wrote:
Bassfish1952 pid='5751' dateline='1685299733']I started at Hornady load for 90gr GMX at 2700 fps all are with LR powder, 24" barrel , CZ527 rifle
out of Hornady reloading app.
What I got
2700- was 2885,2899, 2878
2800- was 3117,2963, 3017
2850- was 3045,3014 and one round wouldn't chamber ( may have missed it when I sized the last time) checking
2900- was 3033, 3141
2950- was 3123
and
3000- was 3150
The 3050 load filled the brass case so I did not try to compress.
The Factory cases ran 2728,2758, 2742
Rounds below are starting with 2700 to far right in green case working to left with highest at left case wall and the 3000 load at the top of picture.
Factory loads are black case
Take aways from my first reloading experience
1. I am going to check my electronic scale against my manual scale not sure of it.
2. My Magnetospeed loosened after several shots and I didn't catch it soon enough so could have been the strange spreads I got on some.
05-28-2023, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-28-2023, 09:03 PM by CZ527 Guy.)
Like Johnys Reloading bench might respond....Well, you did not blow your face off. That has to be a good thing. Data does look quite scary to me.
What I mean by that is I am inclined to think your velocity readings were correct or reasonably close. If this is true the data seems to indicate your pressure was on the high side quite early. While I am happy you are coming away safe, I am hoping you are at least a bit nervous about the data.
I had been of the opinion that LVR may be one of the safer propellants you could have worked with, for this loading. As I feel you may be hard pressed to get too much in the case that you may not get yourself in any real trouble. Your data is leaving me second guessing that to a degree to be honest.
My take away is the Pacnor barrel is a fast barrel. I expect your pressure did get on the high side. Photos provided leave a bit to be desired, though I think the far right primers lare looking a bit flat, though I am not noticing any primer flow around the firing pin. suggesting elevated pressure.
Hornady's top load data is often over the top. I expect you will generally need to scale back a grain or more to stay inside of safe pressure limits.
What primer are your reloads primed with?
You will want to evaluate primer pocket growth. Keep those upper end cases separate. Curious what you will see if you were to keep those top loads separate. Deprime the case & seat a new primer. Note, the feel of seating the primers in these cases verses when you initially primed the brass.
Then deprime the lower velocity cases & seat new primers again. are you noticing a difference in seating pressure?
Check the mgspd frequently until you have a good idea of how it's holding. I had to do that at first, but still check every 4-5 loads or so.
My opinion, if those loads show your load spread you are loading too fast, too far apart as to load values. For a new bullet (to you), and new process you should start at the 28.4 then increase by 0.3 gr, some guys use 5 per load step, I do a ladder first then 4 per step once I know what my barrel will do.
So either
a. 1 at 28.4, 1-28.7, 1-29.0, 1-29.3, 1-29.6. Mayve add a 29.9.
or
b. 4 ea at, again, 28.4, 28.7, 29.0, 29.3, 29.6.
Watching it all the time (during the shooting) b/c if you start to see 100+ fps more than Hornady, something is way off.
Magneto all of them, then take the data back to graph it out.
Take that data back to the bench and evaluate. You have a 24" barrel, so did they for this load data. Could be your throat is shorter than theirs was (did you check the oal to make sure you were off the lands? I would load all-copper like that, conservatively, 50-60 thou off the lands since it is tougher to engrave in the barrel than cup/core.).
Some early barrels had short throats, hornady "fixed" it by shortening their 105 bthp ammo but IMO those throats were still short. Short throat means higher pressure and unrealistically higher MV. Just one thought on what you're seeing.
If it is your scales then you should be able to find that out easily...
Anyway keep us posted.
05-28-2023, 11:04 PM (This post was last modified: 05-28-2023, 11:13 PM by Bassfish1952.)
[attachment=692 Wrote:CZ527 Guy pid='5753' dateline='1685307311']Like Johnys Reloading bench might respond....Well, you did not blow your face off. That has to be a good thing. Data does look quite scary to me.
What I mean by that is I am inclined to think your velocity readings were correct or reasonably close. If this is true the data seems to indicate your pressure was on the high side quite early. While I am happy you are coming away safe, I am hoping you are at least a bit nervous about the data.
I had been of the opinion that LVR may be one of the safer propellants you could have worked with, for this loading. As I feel you may be hard pressed to get too much in the case that you may not get yourself in any real trouble. Your data is leaving me second guessing that to a degree to be honest.
My take away is the Pacnor barrel is a fast barrel. I expect your pressure did get on the high side. Photos provided leave a bit to be desired, though I think the far right primers lare looking a bit flat, though I am not noticing any primer flow around the firing pin. suggesting elevated pressure.
Hornady's top load data is often over the top. I expect you will generally need to scale back a grain or more to stay inside of safe pressure limits.
What primer are your reloads primed with?
You will want to evaluate primer pocket growth. Keep those upper end cases separate. Curious what you will see if you were to keep those top loads separate. Deprime the case & seat a new primer. Note, the feel of seating the primers in these cases verses when you initially primed the brass.
Then deprime the lower velocity cases & seat new primers again. are you noticing a difference in seating pressure?
Thanks, I'll start looking at them more closely tomorrow
I am using federal champion 205 primers and being realistic the second load at 29.5gr was supposed to give 2800 fps but was all over 2900 with if is consistent on my next try will put me in the range I want to be in (above 2900fps) and I didn't see anything wrong with them . I will take a better pic of them tomorrow
Each lot of LVR can vary & you likely have a fast barrel with your Pacnor. Both factors may be calling for backing off your loads considerably if we are to believe the data.
If your primer pockets have grown to a point that you are experiencing loose primer seating, Id tend to believe your data to a larger degree.
I do expect you likely did make an error with your charge weight the 29.5 grain load with the velocity you experienced. I expect you were close to 31 grains on that group of rounds. could be wrong though that is the direction the data is pointing. Will take time though this is part of the process of coming to trust your equipment & the nut operating the equipment.
I understand you have a bit of a long drive to utilize a range, Though IMHO you are working with a mistaken notion that Hornady data should duplicate if you use the provided recipe in your rifle. If that is the case, you have proven to yourself , your rifle is not hhe same as there test rifle. Once you wrap your head around this you may come to understand that from one powder to the next you may need to back off a grain & a half or more from upper end loads.
Until you prove otherwise I'll encourage you to stay well off upper end loads while you are getting your feet grounded with all of the process. Patience & close observation will serve you well. Glad you have the Magneto speed for feed back. If your Magneto speed is correct & again I suspect it is the data you are seeing in very valuable.
Going forward being more diligent double checking yourself till you are more familiar & confident in your process would be prudent.
05-29-2023, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2023, 12:41 PM by Bassfish1952.)
[attachment=694 Wrote:grayfox pid='5755' dateline='1685314080']Check the mgspd frequently until you have a good idea of how it's holding. I had to do that at first, but still check every 4-5 loads or so.
My opinion, if those loads show your load spread you are loading too fast, too far apart as to load values. For a new bullet (to you), and new process you should start at the 28.4 then increase by 0.3 gr, some guys use 5 per load step, I do a ladder first then 4 per step once I know what my barrel will do.
So either
a. 1 at 28.4, 1-28.7, 1-29.0, 1-29.3, 1-29.6. Mayve add a 29.9.
or
b. 4 ea at, again, 28.4, 28.7, 29.0, 29.3, 29.6.
Watching it all the time (during the shooting) b/c if you start to see 100+ fps more than Hornady, something is way off.
Magneto all of them, then take the data back to graph it out.
Take that data back to the bench and evaluate. You have a 24" barrel, so did they for this load data. Could be your throat is shorter than theirs was (did you check the oal to make sure you were off the lands? I would load all-copper like that, conservatively, 50-60 thou off the lands since it is tougher to engrave in the barrel than cup/core.).
Some early barrels had short throats, hornady "fixed" it by shortening their 105 bthp ammo but IMO those throats were still short. Short throat means higher pressure and unrealistically higher MV. Just one thought on what you're seeing.
If it is your scales then you should be able to find that out easily...
Anyway keep us posted.
I was trying to copy Hornady to get a baseline and felt it was safe to start with them. The first loading 28.4 all came in at 2878-99 So I'm starting my second try at 29gr. which is below Hornady's 2nd load at 29.5 but may give me 2900-2950fps and should be a safe start. Going up .1gr at a time till I get a good consistency and a good grouping while staying below Hornady's 3rd load of 30gr which gave me just over 3000fps and is a lot less than max load at 32.3gr.
By testing my loads against Hornady factory 2728-2758 and 2742 I think showed I was getting good readings of my inexperience with the scale and possible inadequate electronic scale. I'll set up the balance beam and check all loads with it going forward and ordered a microjust seating stem to help with getting consistent results on OAL which in this case I was shooting for 2.24 but ended up at 2.25 based on Hornady's OAL for the 90gr CX and GMX bullet, well off the lands.
The good news is I am very happy with my Pac-Nor Barrel with all my screw ups in inconsistency making the bullets this is my shot group at 100yds
3x9x50 scope
there was 13 rounds fired at this I see 12 holes not sure about number 13 But I think this barrel is very tolerant of assorted loads which for a hunting rifle makes me happy.
Now I have 50 87gr Absolute Hammers coming, after I nail down a load for the 90gr Hornady I will start not as the YouTube said but at a little less than my 90gr CX load to try 1 shot with the Hammer but that's for later
I did not have a spotting scope and fired all rounds before going down range to check the target but think the flyer was my next to last and last loads ( the hottest ones) the last may have gone off the paper to that side. We'll see on the next test
Also I did have several old reloading hands and the range safety officer take a interest in my endeavor and gave me opinions it was an interesting day
Judging by your chrono numbers I would load some up around 28.4gr and probably wouldn't go over 29gr (28.4, 28.7 and 29.0). You had a great ES and just below 2900fps. How much speed do you want? If it groups decent start playing with the seating depth. I'm not sure and maybe someone can answer it, but the Starline brass might have less case capacity than the Hornady brass you got the load data from. Your brass will thank you for the lighter charges too.
(05-29-2023, 11:34 PM)popgun Wrote: Judging by your chrono numbers I would load some up around 28.4gr and probably wouldn't go over 29gr (28.4, 28.7 and 29.0). You had a great ES and just below 2900fps. How much speed do you want? If it groups decent start playing with the seating depth. I'm not sure and maybe someone can answer it, but the Starline brass might have less case capacity than the Hornady brass you got the load data from. Your brass will thank you for the lighter charges too.
2900fps is supposed to give me a little over 1000 pound of energy at 300yds that is what I am trying for but first I have to get consistent . Working on it
I don't have a place to do gel test or water bottles and catch the bullet so falling back on the 1000pounds deal.
I do have some once fired Hornady brass I can load side by side and see how it affects the out come next loading. Also will be reusing the now once fired starline brass to see if that changes anything.
There are reasons why I was saying use a 0.3 gr spread between loads, but it's your loading game so your choice. For anyone except a precision shooter, loading at << 1% capacity (ie, 0.1 in this case) will yield more noise than results, as the load spread is too tight to be of statistical relevance - ie, with an SD of 10, your 0.1 gr is within 1 SD of the previous load so what did you learn from it? In a perfect world the load vs MV for a well-behaved rifle system should show a straight-line, linear increase in MV as load increases, thus it is unnecessary to use 0.1 increments, and also unnecessary to "duplicate" hornady load spreads. The 1% delta (0.3 in this case) allows for enough MV difference to be more than just standard deviations, ie, "noise", and allow you to see what is actually happening with your powder/bullet load combo's performance. So unless there is some compression or some other non-powder issue, your real-world results can be put into a graph and the linear "best fit" is probably the load curve for your powder/bullet/rifle combo.
Going at 0.1 will spend lots of bullets for little useful info.
Your 24" barrel probably has a node somewhere close to 3000 but it might be 2960, maybe 3045, bet you a dunkin donut it's not exactly 3000. Possible but you have to let the barrel tell you where its node is, you can't specify/force fit it by yourself. Such is the nature of reloading: to find the natural loads that a barrel likes, with small groups and small SD, not the load you tell it to do.
05-30-2023, 04:13 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2023, 04:26 AM by CZ527 Guy.)
(05-30-2023, 02:06 AM)grayfox Wrote: There are reasons why I was saying use a 0.3 gr spread between loads, but it's your loading game so your choice. For anyone except a precision shooter, loading at << 1% capacity (ie, 0.1 in this case) will yield more noise than results, as the load spread is too tight to be of statistical relevance - ie, with an SD of 10, your 0.1 gr is within 1 SD of the previous load so what did you learn from it? In a perfect world the load vs MV for a well-behaved rifle system should show a straight-line, linear increase in MV as load increases, thus it is unnecessary to use 0.1 increments, and also unnecessary to "duplicate" hornady load spreads. The 1% delta (0.3 in this case) allows for enough MV difference to be more than just standard deviations, ie, "noise", and allow you to see what is actually happening with your powder/bullet load combo's performance. So unless there is some compression or some other non-powder issue, your real-world results can be put into a graph and the linear "best fit" is probably the load curve for your powder/bullet/rifle combo.
Going at 0.1 will spend lots of bullets for little useful info.
Your 24" barrel probably has a node somewhere close to 3000 but it might be 2960, maybe 3045, bet you a dunkin donut it's not exactly 3000. Possible but you have to let the barrel tell you where its node is, you can't specify/force fit it by yourself. Such is the nature of reloading: to find the natural loads that a barrel likes, with small groups and small SD, not the load you tell it to do.
Well said! I'll add that if Hornady is listing 3050 as a max velocity with a particular bullet & powder charge; Pay respect to the max velocity, despite powder charge may be short of listed max. If you are working with that exact bullet, when you reach max velocity listed, It is most likely prudent to accept enough is enough.
If you have additional loads at higher charge weight, Pulling the bullet may be your best option for the loads with the ,higher weight charges.
(05-30-2023, 02:06 AM)grayfox Wrote: There are reasons why I was saying use a 0.3 gr spread between loads, but it's your loading game so your choice. For anyone except a precision shooter, loading at << 1% capacity (ie, 0.1 in this case) will yield more noise than results, as the load spread is too tight to be of statistical relevance - ie, with an SD of 10, your 0.1 gr is within 1 SD of the previous load so what did you learn from it? In a perfect world the load vs MV for a well-behaved rifle system should show a straight-line, linear increase in MV as load increases, thus it is unnecessary to use 0.1 increments, and also unnecessary to "duplicate" hornady load spreads. The 1% delta (0.3 in this case) allows for enough MV difference to be more than just standard deviations, ie, "noise", and allow you to see what is actually happening with your powder/bullet load combo's performance. So unless there is some compression or some other non-powder issue, your real-world results can be put into a graph and the linear "best fit" is probably the load curve for your powder/bullet/rifle combo.
Going at 0.1 will spend lots of bullets for little useful info.
Your 24" barrel probably has a node somewhere close to 3000 but it might be 2960, maybe 3045, bet you a dunkin donut it's not exactly 3000. Possible but you have to let the barrel tell you where its node is, you can't specify/force fit it by yourself. Such is the nature of reloading: to find the natural loads that a barrel likes, with small groups and small SD, not the load you tell it to do.
Well said! I'll add that if Hornady is listing 3050 as a max velocity with a particular bullet & powder charge; Pay respect to the max velocity, despite powder charge may be short of listed max. If you are working with that exact bullet, when you reach max velocity listed, It is most likely prudent to accept enough is enough.
If you have additional loads at higher charge weight, Pulling the bullet may be your best option for the loads with the ,higher weight charges.
Inertia pullers are a less expensive option & more universal with no need for the collets. Still I prefer the collet system.
I bought a puller and .3 is doable . I don't need 3000 but would like to be above 2900 for hunting although without gel or water jugs or some other way of seeing bullet expansion I'm guessing what will work . So I thought to ensure best performance I would go with Hornady ballistic charts and energy projections. I am keeping the brass separated and will watch to see how they do . I decapped last night and paid Attention to primer hole there doesn't seem to be any pressure signs except for the last 2 cartridges which were flatter but after resizing and seating new primers I could not see a deference in the brass
CZ you said to prime then deprime, honestly I didn't know you could deprime a live primier .
I shot the Factory loads first and then low to high, I think my trouble with the magneto speed may have started acting up after the 28.4gr load of reloads they and the factory loads all showed close spreads
So
check the magento speed after each 3 shot group
ladder in .3gr spread
don't exceed 2950fps for now
and I am going to load some Hornady brass to compare with the starline will start the Hornady brass at 28.4 and catch up
Plus I am going to the indoor range this time I'll be able to look at each loading and swap targets as I shoot to compare group size.
I'm not going to redo 28.4 but will start at 28.7 with the starline brass and go up at .3gr. I'm expecting to see 2900fps with one of the first two steps, if I do and grouping is good I'll stop there and evaluate what I have
The indoor range is by the hour and by the time I setup and shoot 3 steps in Hornady and 3 steps in starline I should be out of time, hopefully there won't be a waiting line and I can add another hr. if needed
I have Bass fished since I was 10 or so. I am comfortable in what I know there and am in the top 100 in the world for biggest bass. I don't expect to do anything like that here but but I do expect to be able to load and shoot a dependable hunting round and some loads for target shooting . I tend to enjoy a little experimenting but once I find what I want I stick to it.
05-30-2023, 02:47 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2023, 02:49 PM by grayfox.)
No worries, just trying to look out for ya. For 24" you should find a node pretty close to 2900. I'm going on all this b/c of my own shooting experiences and using my OBT based approach, which I use for all my rifles.
2900 with the cx and a BC of 0.422, you hit 1009 ke and 2247 fps at 325 yds. So anything above that will be gravy. Note an extra 100 fps usually only gives you about +50 yds or so.
ps, I doubt if I''ve been in top 100 for anything, maybe in math... and some part of nuclear...
lol.
Bassfish1952 pid='5751' dateline='1685299733']I started at Hornady load for 90gr GMX at 2700 fps all are with LR powder, 24" barrel , CZ527 rifle
But I think this barrel is very tolerant of assorted loads which for a hunting rifle makes me happy.
