Factory Ammo Problems

[PeteS]

So I'm this for somebody with more ammo/reloading knowledge than me, because what's happening doesn't make alot of sense, especially with factory ammo. I'm shooting factory Hornady 6 ARC ammo out of a bolt gun and experiencing "popped" primers, but only with the Silver colored primers and not the Gold/Brass ones. What else is weird is it's only happening with the 108gr Match and not the new 80gr VMatch but both use the Silver primers? It's not happening with the H Match 108gr or H Black  105gr with Gold primers only the Silver? What's even stranger is the factory ammo from Hornady is loaded to the Gas Gun specs at 52,000 psi and which is less then the Bolt Gun specs of 62,000 psi and suppost to be not as hot as they could be from handloaders for the bolt specs. When I shoot any of them out of my AR I have no pressure signs at all, which is fine but makes my problem with my bolt gun stranger. My bolt gun is a Savage Axis ll 22 inch Heavy Barrel and Accutrigger, it's also in a boyds stock and has a Glades Aromory Bolt Handle but only the handle. It has the factory firing pin and spring in it. When I shoot the Savage the Gold primers look perfect, but the Silver either "pop" or crater up around the firing pin. I've also noticed that sometimes when they pop smoke comes out the trigger and locks it out or will make it to where the trigger will go off before the blade is fully behing the trigger shoe, which isn't good. And the "popped" primer groups are terrible compared to the regular fired primers. The bolt lift is so tight compared to other Axis guns I've tried and it cracked the polymer clamp on bolt knob that I was using for it and the reason I went with the Glades Bolt Handle. So yeah, I was hoping somebody else would have a idea of what makes this happen, and only to the Silver primers and Not the Gold. Thanks.                    

[grayfox]

Something spec-wise wrong with that ammo series, is my guess. It could be that its oal is causing the rounds to jam into the chamber. Also possible (not as much IMO) is the chamber specs of the axis.
First thing to do is to call Hornady, have some pics ready and the 2 lots of ammo, gold primers and silver, lot #s etc. The silver ones seem to be going over-pressure in the axis. So something up with that combo. Don't shoot them any more in the axis.

There were cases (lol) of older hornady ammo where they were loaded too long from the factory, but those were 105's, the more-tangent, a-bit-blunter, hpbt not the eldm's of the 108. That was when it all first came out but Hornady since changed their loading of those 105's to a 2.200 OAL, so they wouldn't jam any more. I give this just for history sake b/c yours seem to be all 108's, right? But anyway I'd call hornady.

Second thing you could check is check distance to lands of the 108's, just the bullets, with an OAL comparator and digital caliper. Hornady has one- the comparator. for this you will need some gear to do, but that gear is worth having.

[PeteS]

Something spec-wise wrong with that ammo series, is my guess.  It could be that its oal is causing the rounds to jam into the chamber.  Also possible (not as much IMO) is the chamber specs of the axis.
First thing to do is to call Hornady, have some pics ready and the 2 lots of ammo, gold primers and silver, lot #s etc.  The silver ones seem to be going over-pressure in the axis.  So something up with that combo.  Don't shoot them any more in the axis.

There were cases (lol) of older hornady ammo where they were loaded too long from the factory, but those were 105's, the more-tangent, a-bit-blunter, hpbt not the eldm's of the 108.  That was when it all first came out but Hornady since changed their loading of those 105's to a 2.200 OAL, so they wouldn't jam any more.  I give this just for history sake b/c yours seem to be all 108's, right?  But anyway I'd call hornady.

Second thing you could check is check distance to lands of the 108's, just the bullets, with an OAL comparator and digital caliper.  Hornady has one- the comparator.  for this you will need some gear to do, but that gear is worth having.

What's funny is it's actually only the 108gr Silver primers, which were purchased a couple weeks ago and were the newest lot they just sent out and my local Rural King just got. It has happened with older lots too, but always with the 108's and the silver primers never with any lot of Gold primers, New or Old. Thanks for the info, will definetly look further into it.

[PeteS]

Something spec-wise wrong with that ammo series, is my guess.  It could be that its oal is causing the rounds to jam into the chamber.  Also possible (not as much IMO) is the chamber specs of the axis.
First thing to do is to call Hornady, have some pics ready and the 2 lots of ammo, gold primers and silver, lot #s etc.  The silver ones seem to be going over-pressure in the axis.  So something up with that combo.  Don't shoot them any more in the axis.

There were cases (lol) of older hornady ammo where they were loaded too long from the factory, but those were 105's, the more-tangent, a-bit-blunter, hpbt not the eldm's of the 108.  That was when it all first came out but Hornady since changed their loading of those 105's to a 2.200 OAL, so they wouldn't jam any more.  I give this just for history sake b/c yours seem to be all 108's, right?  But anyway I'd call hornady.

Second thing you could check is check distance to lands of the 108's, just the bullets, with an OAL comparator and digital caliper.  Hornady has one- the comparator.  for this you will need some gear to do, but that gear is worth having.

What's funny is it's actually only the 108gr Silver primers, which were purchased a couple weeks ago and were the newest lot they just sent out and my local Rural King just got. It has happened with older lots too, but always with the 108's and the silver primers never with any lot of Gold primers, New or Old. Thanks for the info, will definetly look further into it.

So this is what Hornady sent me from their service department. I'm not sure if they are right. My gun isn't dirty?        

---

Something spec-wise wrong with that ammo series, is my guess.  It could be that its oal is causing the rounds to jam into the chamber.  Also possible (not as much IMO) is the chamber specs of the axis.
First thing to do is to call Hornady, have some pics ready and the 2 lots of ammo, gold primers and silver, lot #s etc.  The silver ones seem to be going over-pressure in the axis.  So something up with that combo.  Don't shoot them any more in the axis.

There were cases (lol) of older hornady ammo where they were loaded too long from the factory, but those were 105's, the more-tangent, a-bit-blunter, hpbt not the eldm's of the 108.  That was when it all first came out but Hornady since changed their loading of those 105's to a 2.200 OAL, so they wouldn't jam any more.  I give this just for history sake b/c yours seem to be all 108's, right?  But anyway I'd call hornady.

Second thing you could check is check distance to lands of the 108's, just the bullets, with an OAL comparator and digital caliper.  Hornady has one- the comparator.  for this you will need some gear to do, but that gear is worth having.

What's funny is it's actually only the 108gr Silver primers, which were purchased a couple weeks ago and were the newest lot they just sent out and my local Rural King just got. It has happened with older lots too, but always with the 108's and the silver primers never with any lot of Gold primers, New or Old. Thanks for the info, will definetly look further into it.

So this is what Hornady sent me from their service department. I'm not sure if they are right. My gun isn't dirty?

If there was a carbon ring effecting the rounds "Headspace" then they would effect the Gold primer rounds the same as the Silver primers right? TheSilver primers being thinner might be true but then why use them at all if they can be punctured easier. I know they only use what they can get if supply is low but still that sucks cause I don't reload and now I have to hope they use the right primer I need to shoot in my gun whenever they get it out kn the shelves. Oh Well.

[PeteS]

Something spec-wise wrong with that ammo series, is my guess.  It could be that its oal is causing the rounds to jam into the chamber.  Also possible (not as much IMO) is the chamber specs of the axis.
First thing to do is to call Hornady, have some pics ready and the 2 lots of ammo, gold primers and silver, lot #s etc.  The silver ones seem to be going over-pressure in the axis.  So something up with that combo.  Don't shoot them any more in the axis.

There were cases (lol) of older hornady ammo where they were loaded too long from the factory, but those were 105's, the more-tangent, a-bit-blunter, hpbt not the eldm's of the 108.  That was when it all first came out but Hornady since changed their loading of those 105's to a 2.200 OAL, so they wouldn't jam any more.  I give this just for history sake b/c yours seem to be all 108's, right?  But anyway I'd call hornady.

Second thing you could check is check distance to lands of the 108's, just the bullets, with an OAL comparator and digital caliper.  Hornady has one- the comparator.  for this you will need some gear to do, but that gear is worth having.

What's funny is it's actually only the 108gr Silver primers, which were purchased a couple weeks ago and were the newest lot they just sent out and my local Rural King just got. It has happened with older lots too, but always with the 108's and the silver primers never with any lot of Gold primers, New or Old. Thanks for the info, will definetly look further into it.

So this is what Hornady sent me from their service department. I'm not sure if they are right. My gun isn't dirty?

---

Something spec-wise wrong with that ammo series, is my guess.  It could be that its oal is causing the rounds to jam into the chamber.  Also possible (not as much IMO) is the chamber specs of the axis.
First thing to do is to call Hornady, have some pics ready and the 2 lots of ammo, gold primers and silver, lot #s etc.  The silver ones seem to be going over-pressure in the axis.  So something up with that combo.  Don't shoot them any more in the axis.

There were cases (lol) of older hornady ammo where they were loaded too long from the factory, but those were 105's, the more-tangent, a-bit-blunter, hpbt not the eldm's of the 108.  That was when it all first came out but Hornady since changed their loading of those 105's to a 2.200 OAL, so they wouldn't jam any more.  I give this just for history sake b/c yours seem to be all 108's, right?  But anyway I'd call hornady.

Second thing you could check is check distance to lands of the 108's, just the bullets, with an OAL comparator and digital caliper.  Hornady has one- the comparator.  for this you will need some gear to do, but that gear is worth having.

What's funny is it's actually only the 108gr Silver primers, which were purchased a couple weeks ago and were the newest lot they just sent out and my local Rural King just got. It has happened with older lots too, but always with the 108's and the silver primers never with any lot of Gold primers, New or Old. Thanks for the info, will definetly look further into it.

So this is what Hornady sent me from their service department. I'm not sure if they are right. My gun isn't dirty?

If there was a carbon ring effecting the rounds "Headspace" then they would effect the Gold primer rounds the same as the Silver primers right? TheSilver primers being thinner might be true but then why use them at all if they can be punctured easier. I know they only use what they can get if supply is low but still that sucks cause I don't reload and now I have to hope they use the right primer I need to shoot in my gun whenever they get it out kn the shelves. Oh Well.

They are saying its my dirty chamber or my bolt face more than the ammo.    

[Old Bob]

I also have two different lots of Hornady 108gr 6mm Arc ammo. One lot has silver primers, the other gold. I haven't shot either in my 6 Arc rifles yet. My 6mm Arc rifles are down the list from my work on my 6.5 Grendel rifles. When I'm done there, I'll check out those two lots.

My initial thoughts about the cratered/pierced silver primers were what Hornady said, the silver primers are made with thinner cups. I also thought there's more than that going on here. If you have the comparators to measure the CBTO of both lots you could do that measurement to see if the CBTO lengths are the same. Like grayfox said, using the comparator, you can also check your base to lands distance to see if your chamber is at saami spec. A quick check would be to color the bullet with a black marker, chamber the round & then extract the round. Notice if there is some slight resistance on extraction. Look at the bullet to see if there are marks on it from touching the lands.

I don't think your issue is a dirty rifle. I don't believe you've had it that long for it to be that fouled-up. I think you would have been cleaning it often during barrel break-in. Hornady said that because they've probably seen some really fouled chambers cause all kinds of weird stuff. Carbon ring? Nah!

[Old Bob]

One other thing. I just went on an online tour of Hornadys Match ammo. Nowhere did I see the 108gr 6mm Arc Match ammo is made specifically for 6mm Arc bolt action rifles. Here's what I found: "Equally at home in AR-15 platforms and short or micro action bolt guns, this load is suitable for applications from personal defense to match shooting, hunting, and military and law enforcement." But, now that we know better now, 6mm Arc Match ammo with silver primers are bolt fodder ...

[PeteS]

One other thing. I just went on an online tour of Hornadys Match ammo. Nowhere did I see the 108gr 6mm Arc Match ammo is made specifically for 6mm Arc bolt action rifles. Here's what I found: "Equally at home in AR-15 platforms and short or micro action bolt guns, this load is suitable for applications from personal defense to match shooting, hunting, and military and law enforcement." But, now that we know better now, 6mm Arc Match ammo with silver primers are bolt fodder ...

Thanks for the info Bob, I'm definetly gonna look into it more.

[grayfox]

Do us a favor and post on here the lot numbers of the ones that shoot ok, and the ones that get popped primers. Lot #s are on the silver label on one end of the box. Not the "product#" but the lot#'s. If that lot is out of spec, someone else could check their factory ammo and avoid shooting that lot# for now, if desired.

This might be a little jumbled,
I'm trying to keep it logical but I write, then re-read, and then think of another point... hopefully this will make some sense.
On the one hand, cleaning the chamber and barrel wouldn't hurt anything.
I have right now, on hand, eldx's (103) factory ammo with both silver and gold primers in box. And 108's with both silver and gold primer in box. Boxes of each color, I mean. The eldx is primarily a hunting round, why would a hunting round be "loaded" primarily for a bolt gun/"match ammo" for a competition? So his logic doesn't add up to me.
I don't buy the point of silver primer ammo being for bolt guns; nowhere in Hornady's literature or history do they say anything like that, and I doubt their lawyers would ever let them do it. Boxing 2 separate specs of ammo, differing only (only?) in primer chosen, where one is for "bolt" guns and one is for gas guns, yet NEVER SAYING THAT TO THE BUYER, is a multi-milliion $$$ lawsuit for negligence/liability waiting to happen.
They must know and load their ammo for use in both frames with no distinction made, ie, for 52 ksi -- and gas guns were first, even when the 108's were first offered to the public. #2, if anything the gas gun would be easier on the ammo pressure-wise since anything loaded for it must stay under 52 ksi, so in a bolt gun it would never approach a limit. #3, the problem is occurring in a bolt gun (108's but only in the silver, the golds are ok), and after a bolt gun is fired (correct me if i'm wrong) the firing pin stays in contact, fully extended in the fire position, until the bolt handle cocks it again during the eject sequence. Popped primers is a sign of over pressure. Primer "flow" can be due to the bolt face's firing pin hole, and a harder primer would resist that, but I would seriously doubt if Savage's bolt face would cause all of this.

He might have something if they indeed use a softer primer "silver" one as opposed to gold, but again that could be a legal liability since they do not say anywhere "use only in gas guns, or only in bolt guns". CCI SRP's #400 are softer and thinner in cup metal than either cci #41 (gold color) or the Win primers (gold last time I looked at them), or the cci 450's (silver but harder and thicker). CCI, at least imo, seem to be just a "tad" smaller in diameter, we're talking maybe 0.001 or so still in spec, but they load easier in some of my tight primer pockets, where Federals are tougher to get in there. They obviously (2-colors) do have differing primer batches on hand at various mfring times, but how would their engineers ever let a primer that can not handle the firing sequence, out into the market... I could see using cci 450's or #41's, but again, you're not having issues in a gas gun firing sequence where either slam fire or soft-pierced primers have more often occurred.

So. not a bad idea to do the clean chamber/barrel thing, just to keep it off of their list. But I doubt that that is the problem here. Next time you call, see if you can get someone from their engineering staff, not just their customer service "techs".

And keep documentation/screen shots of all this info this guy gave you.

---

One more thing.  
Safety first.
Safety first.
Safety first.
I have nothing to sell, and am not bad-mouthing any vendor.
Shooting is an inherently dangerous sport, so safety is paramount, and a little over-caution is much better than a little less.
This is why I say the things I did, above.  If something is suspect, you can always set it aside first and verify ok, shoot later if it really checks out fine.  You can't put a busted eyeball back into the socket, however. (A bit graphic but you get the point.)
I approach potential problems as guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around.

[PeteS]

Do us a favor and post on here the lot numbers of the ones that shoot ok, and the ones that get popped primers.  Lot #s are on the silver label on one end of the box.  Not the "product#" but the lot#'s.  If that lot is out of spec, someone else could check their factory ammo and avoid shooting that lot# for now, if desired.

This might be a little jumbled,
I'm trying to keep it logical but I write, then re-read, and then think of another point... hopefully this will make some sense.
On the one hand, cleaning the chamber and barrel wouldn't hurt anything.
I have right now, on hand, eldx's (103) factory ammo with both silver and gold primers in box.  And 108's with both silver and gold primer in box.  Boxes of each color, I mean.  The eldx is primarily a hunting round, why would a hunting round be "loaded" primarily for a bolt gun/"match ammo" for a competition?  So his logic doesn't add up to me.
I don't buy the point of silver primer ammo being for bolt guns; nowhere in Hornady's literature or history do they say anything like that, and I doubt their lawyers would ever let them do it.  Boxing 2 separate specs of ammo, differing only (only?) in primer chosen, where one is for "bolt" guns and one is for gas guns, yet NEVER SAYING THAT TO THE BUYER,  is a multi-milliion $$$ lawsuit for negligence/liability waiting to happen.
They must know and load their ammo for use in both frames with no distinction made, ie, for 52 ksi -- and gas guns were first, even when the 108's were first offered to the public.  #2, if anything the gas gun would be easier on the ammo pressure-wise since anything loaded for it must stay under 52 ksi, so in a bolt gun it would never approach a limit. #3, the problem is occurring in a bolt gun (108's but only in the silver, the golds are ok), and after a bolt gun is fired (correct me if i'm wrong) the firing pin stays in contact, fully extended in the fire position, until the bolt handle cocks it again during the eject sequence.  Popped primers is a sign of over pressure.  Primer "flow" can be due to the bolt face's firing pin hole, and a harder primer would resist that, but I would seriously doubt if Savage's bolt face would cause all of this.

He might have something if they indeed use a softer primer "silver" one as opposed to gold, but again that could be a legal liability since they do not say anywhere "use only in gas guns, or only in bolt guns".  CCI SRP's #400 are softer and thinner in cup metal than either cci #41 (gold color) or the Win primers (gold last time I looked at them), or the cci 450's (silver but harder and thicker).  CCI, at least imo, seem to be just a "tad" smaller in diameter, we're talking maybe 0.001 or so still in spec, but they load easier in some of my tight primer pockets, where Federals are tougher to get in there.  They obviously (2-colors) do have differing primer batches on hand at various mfring times, but how would their engineers ever let a primer that can not handle the firing sequence, out into the market...  I could see using cci 450's or #41's, but again,  you're not having issues in a gas gun firing sequence where either slam fire or soft-pierced primers have more often occurred.

So.  not a bad idea to do the clean chamber/barrel thing, just to keep it off of their list.  But I doubt that that is the problem here.  Next time you call, see if you can get someone from their engineering staff, not just their customer service "techs".

And keep documentation/screen shots of all this info this guy gave you.

---

One more thing.  
Safety first.
Safety first.
Safety first.
I have nothing to sell, and am not bad-mouthing any vendor.
Shooting is an inherently dangerous sport, so safety is paramount, and a little over-caution is much better than a little less.
This is why I say the things I did, above.  If something is suspect, you can always set it aside first and verify ok, shoot later if it really checks out fine.  You can't put a busted eyeball back into the socket, however. (A bit graphic but you get the point.)
I approach potential problems as guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around.

These are the boxes with the lot # that popped and some that didn't. What's even stranger with this whole thing is the New VMatch with the 80gr ELD-VT are using the Silver primers and you would think if they designed the ELD-VT bullets were made to "mimic" the shape of the longer BC bullets, Like the ELDM 108gr then would the VT bullet reach and touch the "Carbon Ring or Lands" like the the 108gr and cause the pressure signs they claim is happening, and they use the same silver primers? Sounds sketchy. And the primers cratering back into the firing pin hole because of a out of spec firing pin hole from savage "could" be it cause this is Savages first try at any gun with a 7.62x39 or Grendel sized bolt face but I doubt a big company like Savage would mess it up that bad...but yet I'm talking about a huge company like Hornady messin up so you never know.                

[popgun]

Your firing pin hole might be oversized. That will cause cratering and punctured primers.

[pavementends]

Firing pin hole size is a common thread on most any small rifle primer thread. The is in fact a small industry dedicated to correcting this issue. Having said that it does seem that ammo manufacturers would know this and only use the harder/thicker cup primers in any small primer ammo that approaches 54k pressures. I know you are not a reloader so don't know if this is any help or not.

[popgun]

The firing pin looks like it's sloppy in the bore by the way it center punches some primers and is way off center on others. Also in the close up picture of the brass colored primers, it looks like you can make out the imprint of the pin bore and it looks like there's to much clearance. But that could be deceiving.