New To Reloading Question

[PeteS]

So I've never reloaded before and I'm starting with 6 ARC. I understand the basics of it but I have a question. My rifle likes the Factory Loaded Hornady 108gr ELDM and the H Black 105gr BTHP, but I keep getting high ES with both 30-35fps ES with the 108gr and 45-50fps ES with the 105gr. I'm assuming that's why I'm getting flyers, cause I'm not sayin I'm the best shooter in the world but I know it's not me or the wind. So I would like to replicate those factory rounds just with control of the amount of powder. I'm gonna pull some of the factory loads and get a guess on the powder but it will be a guess, especially on what type they use. I've heard alot of success with Leverevolution and CFE223. I'll take all the measurements off the factory loads and get a idea of COL and case length and all that. I would appreciate some advice/opinions. Thanks.

[CZ527 Guy]

Odds are rather slim that the factory load is using a powder that is identical to anything you or I have access to. One more propellant you may find both speed & accuracy from may be the power pro 2000.

As a new reloader I am guessing Case trimming & annealing may be areas you will wish to research & master.

[PeteS]

Odds are rather slim that the factory load is using a powder that is identical to anything you or I have access to. One more propellant you may find both speed & accuracy from may be the power pro 2000.

As a new reloader I am guessing Case trimming & annealing  may be  areas you will wish to research & master.

Thanks, I know I probably won't match powder, I guess I mean the measurements of the case, like length and overall finished load length. Also the shoulder size off a factory case to set up my dies more than the powder. I'll try a bunch of different powders though.

[CZ527 Guy]

Depending on your intended use a Wide variety of propellants may not, be in your best interest. Of the propellants that are arable today. I would focus on Leverevolution with the 6mm ARC. If that works you may need to go no further with the 6mm ARC in mind. If you are wanting a more universal powder, CFE 223 may be a bit better for a wider set of applications.

I mentioned PP2000 earlier as when I was struggling to get the 103 gr ELDX to shoot with other propellants, the PP2000 seems to make good things happen with the 103 GR ELDX in my application. Been a difficult powder to source in my experience.

The powders you listed in your initial post may be a great place to start with the 6mm ARC & heavier projectiles, in mind. If you have other cartridges in mind, those cartridges may encourage you to look into other propellant options.

[grayfox]

What he said.
Now I don't know how familiar you are with rifle systems and shooting, so hopefully this won't sound too basic, and no disrespect intended here, but I start here when I see a title and OP like yours.

Commercial mfrs use bulk canister powders that are not necessarily available to us on the shelf, and Hornady is no different.
The high ES you're getting is because they bulk loaded it for accuracy in a 24" (or whatever) barrel, and for any other lenght and any other rifle (no 2 rifles are equal), relatively good accuracy at 100 yds will be there but actual on-node, hand-developed, accuracy, likely not. This is true for most factory rounds.
The 108 and 105 factory loads respond pretty much the way you described for lots of 6 Arc barrels, I know b/c I have three of them currently in use... couple more on the shelf.

If you want to get into reloading, which is a great hobby as I (40+ years into it) and many others will attest to, you must start out at the beginning. No shortcuts. With basic tools and equipment, good load books, and a little training with someone else who knows it... This last is a recommendation, the other items are necessities.

6Arc is a good caliber, but one where you must obey some strict limits, or you could wind up blowing up your barrel, gun or even yourself. Reloading, especially for someone starting out, is only for those who are willing to "color inside the lines." Once you have several thousand rounds downrange, well then, what you decide to do beyond these recommendations is up to you but you'll have some understanding of the limits and precautions and safety needs, etc to keep you safe.

Another point on the 6 Arc, as with the 6.5 grendel, is they are medium pressure, nicely accurate loads that do not "answer the call" with mucho-high pressures and a gazillion feet per sec muzzle velocity. You need to stay within its limitations.

So. Pulling a factory round apart won't get you much useful info. From lot to lot there isn't even a guarantee that it's the same powder.

As to equipment, and components, there is some startup cost, and it can be a lot to begin with.
It might be good to know a few things at the beginning.
1. What is your goal? If it's just to plink or maybe hunt a bit out to 100, 200 yds, then maybe just shoot some various factory loads to see what can achieve that. even with a flyer (assuming it's the bullet), the 108 103 or other loads might be plenty accurate enough for your purposes, and cheaper overall. Shop ammoseek online as well as any Lgs.

2. By the way, what is your rifle setup? AR or bolt? 16, 18, 20 inch barrel or what? Who put it together and how assured are you that it is well-assembled? What kind of optics, attachment, what trigger, what pull weight, who made the barrel... all of these system details could also be the reason for your "flyers", or of the accuracy and even some of the ES/MV details coming out the muzzle. Three components are uppermost in an AR (or any rifle for that matter): barrel quality, trigger quality, and optics quality. When you skimp in any of those your accuracy suffers.

[CZ527 Guy]

To the OP  & any other individual, considering getting into reloading. Read the above post through at least three times when your attention span is up to taking in the wisdom offered. Good point after good point after good point & so on. You will be at this for a while b4 you are fully able to appreciate a whole lot of good nuggets of encouraging words here.

By the way I, too am interested in knowing more about your 6mm ARC of choice. What 6mm ARC are you shooting & how have you set her up?

[PeteS]

I have a few other posts in this forum as I was havin trouble with my Savage Poppin/Piercing factory ammo. I think I fixed the problem which I and some other BR guys from my range that the chamber was cut like garbage and the round was starting off at already max pressure. Which was interesting cause Hornady loads their factory ammo to AR psi specs but were poppin from pressure. But my set up is Savage action E.R. Shaw 1:7 twist 26inch 1.0 bull barrel and I'm just mainly shooting benchrest at 100 to 200 yards. The factory loads r giving me real good groups at the speed and how they r loaded to AR pressure from Hornady so I'm not really chasing speed as much as try'n to control the speed for more accuracy. Thanks for all the info it's very appreciated.                

[CZ527 Guy]

Seems interesting to me in a Townsend Whelen kind of way. I am seeing very little feedback on the ELD-VT offering. I will be interested in seeing how this progresses for you.

Do I understand correctly that your pierced primer issue cleared up with a diffrent barrel, (diffrent chamber) ? All factory ammo with at least 2 diffrent primers?

[dfosland]

Part of the problem with the ELD-VT is that it is a new style of bullet, light for length, and I'm not sure a lot of people are ready to jump onto that bandwagon yet. Personally, I love the concept, have another 5 boxes on the bench. It shoots good groups for me, not as good as the A-Tips, but good enough to take out prairie dogs.

With respect to the original post about reloading, and to add to what has already been said.

2 other things I tell people,

First, stock up on patience, nothing happens fast, there will be a lot of frustration as you wait for components, equipment, and develop loads

Second, cost, a lot of people believe it will be cheaper in the long run, price per shot will be reduced, but when trying to find your best combination, you end up trying so many variations on a theme, and I end up with a lot of extra consumables. Advantage is that as you progress to other calibers, initial cost is gone, just have to get the new consumables and associated dies.

An example of both of these for what we've done in the ARC, "I want to use a bullet in the 105-110 range", a quick filter on Midway shows Berger Jacketed HP/Elite Hunter/VLD Hunting/VLD Target/ Target Jacketed HP/Long Range Hybrid, Nosler RDF/Custom Competition, Lapua Scenar, Barnes Match Burner, and Hornady A-Tip/Match HPBT/ELD-M/Aeromatch. That is just the bullet, then you run into powder choices and primers. Working your way through this requires a LOT of patience and building your own stockroom.

Over the years, I don't want to think about all the money I've invested in my reloading gear, the nice thing is that I still have it all, that I still use most of it (upgrades here and there), not sure how much a price difference I would have from factory ammo, but I'm sure I wouldn't be shooting everything I have if I relied on factory ammo (50 BMG and 17 Remington good examples).

Reloading is a great hobby, keep asking questions, never assume you know it all, and be safe doing it, so you can keep having fun.

[Rickhem]

There's a lot of good info in this thread, and as others have stated, sometimes it takes a re-read or three before it all comes into focus. I'll add that for what you're doing, don't get too wrapped up in what you're getting from your chronograph, and focus on what your target tells you. The extreme spread is huge for those shooting much longer distances than 200 yards, where the velocity equates to vertical dispersion. If your groups are wider than they are tall, it's not ES making that happen.

Controlling ES, like most other aspects of reloading, is a rabbit hole unto itself. The tension that holds your bullet in your case is a big contributor. A bullet that starts moving nano-seconds sooner will be different than one that takes longer to start moving. This is where crimping, neck turning, and a plethora of other case prep activities play a role. Even sorting bullets comes into play, since a variation of of 2 grains of bullet weight will translate to small changes in your velocity. And while all these vatiables occasionally cancel each other out, they also occasionally act cumulatively, which is seemingly what my rifles always do.

But restating my point, an ES of <50 fps would translate to vertical dispersion measured in tenths of an inch at 100 to 200 yards.

[300BLK]

I've been reloading since a young teen, so 50+ years. I started with a Bonanza CoAx press abd Bonanza Benchrest dies, and an Ohaus powder scale. It was my my father's equipment, and new to him at the time.

I've since owned various presses, brands of dies, powder measures, case trimmers.

These days most of my single stage (rifle) loading is done on an RCBS Rockchucker or a cast iron RCBS Jr. The Rockchucker is heavier built and has compound leverage, so takes less effort for heavy sizing. I use Redding powder measures, have a "universal", "pistol" an "Benchrest", and will most definitely recommend one of the benchrest variety with their anti-backlash micrometers. I still use an RCBS 510 or 1010 scale rather than electronic, and verify zero every time that I use it.

As for dies, knowing that you are specifically loading for that boltgun, I'll suggest that you start with the Lee Collet die set. After about five or six full throttle loads, you'll feel the bolt close a bit more stiffly, so probably a good time to bump the shoulder back. My preference for a full length die set is the Forster with or without the micrometer seater. The micrometer seater really isn't necessary. The FLOATING seating chamber is what sets this die set apart from others. Hornady's are a poor imitation at best.

There are bushing die sets that will allow you to control the amount of sizing of the neck, but the same is accomplished with the Lee Collet die. It simply squeezes the neck around a mandrel rather than squeezing down and then dragging an expander button back through which will add to case stretching.

You will need to trim cases at some point in time. Hornady factory loads seem to need trimmed after the first firing. A WFT chucked in a cordless drill will trim in relationship to the shoulder, and is super quick.

You will need an accurate measuring device, and a dial caliper is adequate.

I still use a standard chamfering tool rather than the VLD variety.

My priming is done on an RCBS bench mounted unit, but hand held units have their merit.

As for powders, see what you have available locally and check online, but keep in mind that shipping requires hazmat fees. I think WW748 is the sleeper between velocity, accuracy, and cleanliness.

Thicker cup primers should eliminate your piercing problem, and F205s or their Match siblings will be good.

[grayfox]

Thanks for the info on your rifle, hopefully as mentioned the issues with chamber and primer popping have been solved.
I won't go into my setup, for now, to keep things brief. Only add a couple things, 1) you mention some BR guys at your range, do you have a friend or 2, whom you respect in shooting, that has a reloading setup -- if so, why not spend some time with your powder, brass and components to do some load workups, that way you get real practical experience and get a few rounds to test without getting all the equipment first.
2) don't leave out the sierra 107 SMK, it is in that range and also known as a forgiving, accurate bullet. I use it in both 6 CM and 6 Arc.
3) Lever will be your friend to start 6 Arc reloading.
4) Be very mindful that you will need to do OAL tests for each bullet, for your chamber, and adjust cartridge OALs and load grain level, specifically.
5) For brass, try to stick with one brand, the Hornady brass is ok, better in 6 Arc than the 6.5 Grendel (my opinion), starline is better, but mixing brass back and forth, or mixing firing levels (new vs 1x, 2x, etc), or swapping/mixing primer types, all these changes will affect your accuracies and/or extreme spreads/ std deviations. Consistency in prep, consistency in components, and logging of results -- these things are paramount. Details matter, and logging results beats memory every time.

[PeteS]

Seems interesting to me in a Townsend Whelen kind of way. I am seeing very little feedback on the ELD-VT offering. I will be interested in seeing how this progresses for you.

Do I understand correctly that your pierced primer issue cleared up with a diffrent barrel, (diffrent chamber) ? All factory ammo with at least 2 diffrent primers?

Yeah the primer issue was fixed so far with a different barrel, and there were 2 different primers Silver and Gold and all factory loads but only the Silver pierced.